Engine Warranty & By-pass System?

Joseph Fihn · Jun 7, 2005

I've been interested in the Oilguard system for my Dodge/Cummins. Talked to the dealer about it & he said "if anything goes wrong, your warranty is void"
I called Daimler/Chrysler & their opinion was the same.
I know about the 2 Subaru Engines/Amsoil Bypass story.
Do you guys with bypass systems on newer engines just "hope for the best" thinking you're doing the engine "some good", without worrying about the warranty issue? Is there a good way around the warranty issue?
Thanks.
Joe Fihn

kenw · Jun 7, 2005

it's not their opinion, it's fact.

Joe, legally they can only deny your warranty claim if the modification caused or contributed to the failure.

and usually the burden of proof is on them.

But realistically, since you want the $$ if it does fail, the real burden of proof is on you. That can cost some major $$$.

Their lawyers are already paid for as are their engineers, etc.....you as the consumer with a claim is already at a disadvantage. Do you have the resources to prove in a court that the modification without a doubt DID NOT contribute to the failure in any manner?

I don't have a bypass (oil or heart...) nor a warranty claim related to one, but I did do a lot of warranty work in a former life. FTC laws are pretty consistent regardless of the product involved.

I would say that your "hope for the best" scenario is the only scenario possible here.

bulwnkl · Jun 7, 2005

quote:

it's not their opinion, it's fact.

I agree.

quote:

Joe, legally they can only deny your warranty claim if the modification caused or contributed to the failure.

Please be careful here. I have not read the D-C warranty for this model, so I don't claim I know what it says. Nevertheless, they can deny the warranty claim legally if the warranty is written "properly."

The rest I agree with absolutely 100%.

I have an Amsoil dual-remote bypass on my Neon. It is out of warranty and was when I installed it.

If your warranty is written such that Kenw's assertion about their ability to legally deny a claim is true, then I think a few very simple steps can give you more than enough ammo for the arbitration board you'd end up in front of before going to court. First is an oil pressure gauge. Hook it to the outlet side of the dual-remote and measure the OP going back into the engine from the filter unit. Next is some information from a thread posted within the last month on this board where Cummins supposedly says there is x% extra oil capacity in this engine's system for auxiliary purposes. Get that info straight from Cummins. If the O.P. out of the dual-remote is within specification and Cummins says there is extra capacity in the lubrication system for this kind of thing it might be worth a shot in front of the arbitration board...

deepsquat · Jun 7, 2005

if you do decide to install one ..make sure anytime you take the truck to the dealer that you uninstall it.....I know that would be a PTA but better to protect your warranty ....if you gety a motor guar yound a permacoo ladapter the removal of the system would take less then 10 minutes ..

plexx · Jun 7, 2005

If you look at Oilguard's website they do offer a warranty reguarding any posiable engine damage due to the use of one of their systems , and since they are a part of a huge company like Racor industrial filters I dought that you will have any problems. I have their EPS-10 on my wifes 2003 Jeep wrangler and their EPS-20 on my 2001 Toyota 4runner with no problems ,and they have been on there for quite some time now. If you wait until the warranty is off and now have a car with high milage on it IMO you would not be doing the car much good by now installing a bypass system.

Bio-T · Jun 7, 2005

If you look at Oilguard's website they do offer a warranty reguarding any posiable engine damage due to the use of one of their systems , and since they are a part of a huge company like Racor industrial filters I dought that you will have any problems.

Unless this happened within the last year, Oil Guard is not owned by Racor. Oil Guard makes the Oil Guard and puts Racor's name on it. In fact they will make them for anyone with the bucks. I have had business dealings with Oil Guard and if their warranty is like their owner__________. Well you get the picture.

goodvibes · Jun 7, 2005

There's also the problem of an engine failure that wasn't caused by the filter system, which if installed properly will be the case. You'll still have a **** of a time collecting due to the modification and long OCIs.

Eddie · Jun 8, 2005

Never never get into a shared responsibility issue like engine manufacture vs bypass filter manufacture or you will lose!!!!!!!!!. The cars I buy are well engineered and last over 200,000 miles easy using a good std filter, changed per factory recomendations. Why would I add (remote filter) 2 hoses and 4 fittings that could cause a problem down the road? Now if the engine manufacture offered a bypass system designed for my car as an option then maybe if my driving justafied it.

Steve S · Jun 12, 2005

If you do reasonable mile oil changes the engine will outlast the chassis. Avoid potential warranty problems don't install a bypass filter.

mjo · Jun 13, 2005

quote:

People who maintain their cars well and don't care to add extra plumbing, additional potential failure modes...

If everyone had that mentality then no one would add to or fix their house in fear that their house might rot out, blow up, implode, spontaneously combust, etc. For those of you that think through things, you don't have to worry about anything blowing up because of all the precautions taken to prevent an incident from happening. As for warranties, no one in my family has ever bought new, since used cars are so much cheaper and almost as reliable. Putting a bypass filter on a used car will make the powertrain last as long as a new car without one.

[ June 13, 2005, 04:24 PM: Message edited by: mjo ]

autokin · Jun 13, 2005

I have installed an oilguard filter in both my cars, a Sonata under a 10 year warranty and a Voyager out of Warranty. I am doing oil changes at these intervals.
Sonata: every year (yearly mileage: 5,000)
Voyager: every 6 months. (yearly mileage: 13,000)
So far no problems.
The probability that your engine will develop a problem under normal use is extremely low.
Am I taking a chance in voiding my warranty? Of course!

msparks · Jun 13, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Steve S:
If you do reasonable mile oil changes the engine will outlast the chassis. Avoid potential warranty problems don't install a bypass filter.

But therein lies the problem. WHO WANTS TO DO REASONABLE OIL CHANGES????????????

XS650 · Jun 13, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by msparks:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve S:
If you do reasonable mile oil changes the engine will outlast the chassis. Avoid potential warranty problems don't install a bypass filter.

Click to expand...

But therein lies the problem. WHO WANTS TO DO REASONABLE OIL CHANGES????????????

People who maintain their cars well and don't care to add extra plumbing, additional potential failure modes and risk of warranty hassles.

kenw · Jun 13, 2005

my house was NOT designed as a unitized system and can handle additions just fine. My circuit breaker panel for example has extra capacity for new circuits.

Your car's engine was designed as a single system, with many interoperating subsystems that all must be considered together.

But I fail to see the benefit of these things. I have no problem with ANY of my cars reaching nearly 200k with nothing but stock, bought new or used.

These aftermarket doodad things are pretty much for the enthusiast/hobbiest as they are a single point solution to a problem that really doesn't exist, and fail to comprehend the total system interaction. They are fun to play with if that's your thing. As long as you realize the risk.

mjo · Jun 13, 2005

Let me get this right. So if you put a bypass filter on your engine and say your alternator or transmission goes bad, they would blame it on the bypass filter and void your warranty?

bulwnkl · Jun 14, 2005

Some warranties are written such that they could void your entire warranty based upon the unauthorized modification, while others are written such that they cannot. So, your question does not contain enough information to give a correct answer. You just have to read your warranty.

trynew · Jun 14, 2005

quote:

But I fail to see the benefit of these things.

One of the biggest benefits is the removal of water from the engine oil if you use a toilet paper filter. Living in Houston, you probably don't have as much problem with condensation, but you don't have to go too far north from Houston before the nights get cold for much of the year. I see water dripping out of the tailpipes on my vehicles for much of the year when I start them in the mornings.

quote:

I have no problem with ANY of my cars reaching nearly 200k with nothing but stock, bought new or used.

I put 200k on a Honda Civic after a rebuild due to a water pump failure without using a bypass filter. It was still running smoothly, but had lost a lot of power and the engine seals weren't as tight as when it was newer. My feeling is that a bypass filter would have kept more power in the engine and the constantly clean oil would have kept the seals in better condition. Just read all the positive comments from people that have used AutoRx to clean up their engines and stopped leaky seals.

y_p_w · Jun 14, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by bulwnkl:
Some warranties are written such that they could void your entire warranty based upon the unauthorized modification, while others are written such that they cannot. So, your question does not contain enough information to give a correct answer. You just have to read your warranty.

That wouldn't be legal in the US, due to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Improvement Act of 1975. It would be illegal to put in writing and certainly wouldn't be legally enforcable in court.

I'm not saying that a dealer won't make a big deal out of an "unauthorized" modification regarding an unrelated component failure. What is available to the warrantor is time, given the cost and effort needed to take someone to court. Many people just give up.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty.htm

quote:

While you cannot use a tie-in sales provision, your warranty need not cover use of replacement parts, repairs, or maintenance that is inappropriate for your product.

http://frwebgate4.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocID=7898673433+0+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve

15USC2303(c)

quote:

(c) Waiver of standards
The performance of the duties under subsection (a) of this section shall not be required of the warrantor if he can show that the defect, malfunction, or failure of any warranted consumer product to conform with a written warranty, was caused by damage (not resulting from defect or malfunction) while in the possession of the consumer, or unreasonable use (including failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance).

deepsquat · Jun 14, 2005

But I fail to see the benefit of these things. I have no problem with ANY of my cars reaching nearly 200k with nothing but stock, bought new or used.[b/]

well let's see : I have gone as much as 44,000 miles without changing my oil ..and still was able to post analysis # as low as the best #$ that anybody posts on this board !
2 PPM of Aluminum!
5 PPM of Iron !
2 PPM of Lead !
After 44,000 miles without changing the oil, and this doesn't give you reason to think that maybe this dodad does something?
Heck most posters would love to put up # like that with 3000 miles on there oil ..let alone 44,000 miles.

and yes this was not just some freak accident or lab error , I have ran it over 20,000 miles 3 different times with analysis .
At this wear rate my engine should last over 400,000 miles ..assuming I keep the car that long, my commute just dropped from 74 miles to 20 miles ..and I am loveing it !

RalphPWood · Jun 14, 2005

There are several filters that clean oil. The only practical one besides the Motor Guard would be the Frantz. Any time the filter costs more than an oil change you are not gaining much. Especially if it isn't submicronic. About the only thing the string filters are good for is channeling.
When I go to the expense of installing a bypass filter I don't want to have the additional expense of expensive filter elements that don't work very well and dirty oil that needs to be drained. You can put any kind of bypass filter on an engine and change the oil and the engine will last long enough to make most people happy. Some of us require more to be happy.
We don't want normal wear and normal oul drains. Also an engine will perform better with clean oil. I don't mean almost clean. My oldest filter has saved me many thousands of dollars in 40 years. When you are purchasing something that can last a lifetime it pays to make the right choice.
Before 1953 all filters were bypass filters. They were far superior to what they put on todays cars.

Ralph

Engine Warranty & By-pass System?

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