Emailed RP regarding basestocks on SN oils.

Pennzoil motor oil
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Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

If what the tech said is actually true (the group 4/5 basestocks), then maybe their 0W-20's VI is low(er/ish) because they add NO VIIs at all, and count on the basestock blend to give them their total VI level (like MPT does)???
21.gif


Actually their 0W-20 with it's 177 VI is higher than most traditionally formulated 0W-20's like M1 and PP so it certainly uses polymer thickeners just not the latest very high VI PMA type.
The claim that all their oils are PAO/GP V based I don't believe. For example their 5w30 has a MRV of only 25,200cP. There are dino's with a MRV in that area. By comparison the GP III based Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 has a MRV of only 13,300cP. Now RP's 5W-40 may be PAO based since it has a MRV of 13,340cP.
That's the thing about RP, there is a lot of inconsistency in their product line. If they had more complete PDS info including NOACK and HTHSV then if they do have some particularly well formulated oils they would stand out. As it stands, with a couple of exceptions, I'm generally not impressed.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

If what the tech said is actually true (the group 4/5 basestocks), then maybe their 0W-20's VI is low(er/ish) because they add NO VIIs at all, and count on the basestock blend to give them their total VI level (like MPT does)???
21.gif


Actually their 0W-20 with it's 177 VI is higher than most traditionally formulated 0W-20's like M1 and PP so it certainly uses polymer thickeners just not the latest very high VI PMA type.
The claim that all their oils are PAO/GP V based I don't believe. For example their 5w30 has a MRV of only 25,200cP. There are dino's with a MRV in that area. By comparison the GP III based Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 has a MRV of only 13,300cP. Now RP's 5W-40 may be PAO based since it has a MRV of 13,340cP.
That's the thing about RP, there is a lot of inconsistency in their product line. If they had more complete PDS info including NOACK and HTHSV then if they do have some particularly well formulated oils they would stand out. As it stands, with a couple of exceptions, I'm generally not impressed.


In your opinion how do you think their 0W20 stacks up? I'm just about out of Castrol EDGE 0W20 SM and thought the RP deal with a filter for $35 might just be the ticket for my Jeep. Thanks
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

If what the tech said is actually true (the group 4/5 basestocks), then maybe their 0W-20's VI is low(er/ish) because they add NO VIIs at all, and count on the basestock blend to give them their total VI level (like MPT does)???
21.gif


Actually their 0W-20 with it's 177 VI is higher than most traditionally formulated 0W-20's like M1 and PP so it certainly uses polymer thickeners just not the latest very high VI PMA type.
The claim that all their oils are PAO/GP V based I don't believe. For example their 5w30 has a MRV of only 25,200cP. There are dino's with a MRV in that area. By comparison the GP III based Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 has a MRV of only 13,300cP. Now RP's 5W-40 may be PAO based since it has a MRV of 13,340cP.
That's the thing about RP, there is a lot of inconsistency in their product line. If they had more complete PDS info including NOACK and HTHSV then if they do have some particularly well formulated oils they would stand out. As it stands, with a couple of exceptions, I'm generally not impressed.



Not saying you are wrong but it's a pretty big thing to blatantly and publicly lie about the composition of the basestocks. I don't disagree with your assessment of the specs necessarily but to lie when a direct question is posed... big stuff that could be publicly proven to be a lie.
 
Originally Posted By: lexus114
then why do some people on here call their SN oil; "watered down"?


Agreed. If it's SN, it's watered down. If it has no API spec, that puts people into fits, too.

Actually, I'm surprised at the answer. I suspected Group III, considering they yanked the pour points from the data sheets, and I suspected there would be a reason for that.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: lexus114
then why do some people on here call their SN oil; "watered down"?


Agreed. If it's SN, it's watered down. If it has no API spec, that puts people into fits, too.

Actually, I'm surprised at the answer. I suspected Group III, considering they yanked the pour points from the data sheets, and I suspected there would be a reason for that.


I was surprised as well, i expected a lawyer type answer that kinda beats around the bush instead of a straight forward answer. i suspected group III and possibly some group IV, so the answer of group IV and V was a shock, but i was pleased as i just added a bunch of the SN to my stash for $4.61 a qt from the current pepboys sale
thumbsup2.gif
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I've used some RP products in the past and currently run their SyncroMax gear lub' in my BMW's gearbox with good results.
I don't like their 5W-20 and 5w30 oils for their low VIs and very high price here in Canada. Some of their other grades are interesting but nothing leading edge.
For example their 0W-40 seems to be a decent oil but it's not on par with M1 and is more expensive so why bother with it.

You need to get off your high horse of VI's. Just food for thought for you.
 
I can tell you this much. Owning an automotive customization shop, I have come across many people in this industry especially in the racing circuit and I can tell you this with absolute certainty, they all prefer Royal Purple oil not because of what it is on paper but what they have witnessed in real life with tear downs and such. To me this is more important than anything else. Sometimes you get what you pay for and with Royal Purple it seems like its such. This is my opinion and I approve it.(Its election year :P)
 
Originally Posted By: deven
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I've used some RP products in the past and currently run their SyncroMax gear lub' in my BMW's gearbox with good results.
I don't like their 5W-20 and 5w30 oils for their low VIs and very high price here in Canada. Some of their other grades are interesting but nothing leading edge.
For example their 0W-40 seems to be a decent oil but it's not on par with M1 and is more expensive so why bother with it.

You need to get off your high horse of VI's. Just food for thought for you.


x10
 
Originally Posted By: deven
I can tell you this much. Owning an automotive customization shop, I have come across many people in this industry especially in the racing circuit and I can tell you this with absolute certainty, they all prefer Royal Purple oil not because of what it is on paper but what they have witnessed in real life with tear downs and such. To me this is more important than anything else. Sometimes you get what you pay for and with Royal Purple it seems like its such. This is my opinion and I approve it.(Its election year :P)


Deven:

Tear-downs are what it is all about. And in that vein, we certainly cannot discount tear-downs just because they aren't indicative of the performance of our favourite brand.

It is unfortunate that we don't get a lot of tear-down data on this site. I've posted mine, but there were no measurements made, simply observations. I've been part of many a tear-down over the years with both my own gear and those of friends and some of the differences... well, I don't think I need to tell you how dramatic they can be.

Where I'm going with this is that there has been tear-down data presented on this site in the past by a professional in the industry. That individual was Doug Hillary who posted tear-down pictures of a 500HP Detroit Diesel with 1.2 million Km's that spec'd out "as new", run on ~90,000Km OCI's running Delvac 1 with a centrifuge. That engine is still in service.

I don't think you can go wrong with any of the lubricants that are considered top tier. That goes for RP, AMSOIL, Redline..etc. But there is something to be said for an oil certified to a specific set of standards. Oils like Delvac 1, Mobil 1 0w40, Pennzoil Ultra 5w40 Euro....etc, these oils are the best of their breed, designed and certified for the most demanding applications on the planet. Applications that have factory warranty coverage to contend with so consistent performance is mandatory here.

One must consider testimonials and data from all the different sources and I certainly think one must consider the repeatability of these tests. Doug did. His testing for this one lubricant involved a fleet of OTR trucks run on the same lubricant, with the same usage profile to determine and track performance. Performance that was nothing short of spectacular. That is real data. Not used oil analysis with 5ppm of "wear" metals difference that somebody is freaking out about claiming their bearings are coming apart. No, real tests, real data, confirmed by tear downs.

The same thing is done in the performance and racing world as you can attest to. Lubricant performance tracked through tear downs and measurements. Albeit, at much shorter intervals.

It is so easy to get lost in the mythology; the legends, stigma and "data" on this site. Many topics, like Royal Purple, are so polarized it is insane. And I'm guilty in partaking in those discussions in the past myself.

What it really comes down to is tear downs. But since we don't have many of those, we instead choose to duke it out over used oil analysis, oil consumption and what the latest flavour of the month miracle in a can is going to do to restore your engine to like new condition. It is what it is. After all, there's only so much to talk about when the data is lacking, and not really practical to obtain
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: deven
I can tell you this much. Owning an automotive customization shop, I have come across many people in this industry especially in the racing circuit and I can tell you this with absolute certainty, they all prefer Royal Purple oil not because of what it is on paper but what they have witnessed in real life with tear downs and such. To me this is more important than anything else. Sometimes you get what you pay for and with Royal Purple it seems like its such. This is my opinion and I approve it.(Its election year :P)


Deven:

Tear-downs are what it is all about. And in that vein, we certainly cannot discount tear-downs just because they aren't indicative of the performance of our favourite brand.

It is unfortunate that we don't get a lot of tear-down data on this site. I've posted mine, but there were no measurements made, simply observations. I've been part of many a tear-down over the years with both my own gear and those of friends and some of the differences... well, I don't think I need to tell you how dramatic they can be.

Where I'm going with this is that there has been tear-down data presented on this site in the past by a professional in the industry. That individual was Doug Hillary who posted tear-down pictures of a 500HP Detroit Diesel with 1.2 million Km's that spec'd out "as new", run on ~90,000Km OCI's running Delvac 1 with a centrifuge. That engine is still in service.

I don't think you can go wrong with any of the lubricants that are considered top tier. That goes for RP, AMSOIL, Redline..etc. But there is something to be said for an oil certified to a specific set of standards. Oils like Delvac 1, Mobil 1 0w40, Pennzoil Ultra 5w40 Euro....etc, these oils are the best of their breed, designed and certified for the most demanding applications on the planet. Applications that have factory warranty coverage to contend with so consistent performance is mandatory here.

One must consider testimonials and data from all the different sources and I certainly think one must consider the repeatability of these tests. Doug did. His testing for this one lubricant involved a fleet of OTR trucks run on the same lubricant, with the same usage profile to determine and track performance. Performance that was nothing short of spectacular. That is real data. Not used oil analysis with 5ppm of "wear" metals difference that somebody is freaking out about claiming their bearings are coming apart. No, real tests, real data, confirmed by tear downs.

The same thing is done in the performance and racing world as you can attest to. Lubricant performance tracked through tear downs and measurements. Albeit, at much shorter intervals.

It is so easy to get lost in the mythology; the legends, stigma and "data" on this site. Many topics, like Royal Purple, are so polarized it is insane. And I'm guilty in partaking in those discussions in the past myself.

What it really comes down to is tear downs. But since we don't have many of those, we instead choose to duke it out over used oil analysis, oil consumption and what the latest flavour of the month miracle in a can is going to do to restore your engine to like new condition. It is what it is. After all, there's only so much to talk about when the data is lacking, and not really practical to obtain
wink.gif



Well said. Some view the PDS and used oil analysis posted on this site as Gospel, when in reality a tear down and inspection is all that really matters. We don't see much if any because of cost, but the few that were posted were eye openers! I'll take Doug Hilliary's comments and recommendations over any PDS, UOA, sales hype, or bogus tests and charts created by a marketing department, and passed to a sales rep any day.
 
Originally Posted By: deven
I can tell you this much. Owning an automotive customization shop, I have come across many people in this industry especially in the racing circuit and I can tell you this with absolute certainty, they all prefer Royal Purple oil not because of what it is on paper but what they have witnessed in real life with tear downs and such. To me this is more important than anything else. Sometimes you get what you pay for and with Royal Purple it seems like its such. This is my opinion and I approve it.(Its election year :P)


I believe it. Also consider that RP's success, a lot of it at least, is found in racing where their highly additized oils do often outperform their API cousins in flat tappet cam engines.

I don't know how good RP SN is. Supposedly Calumet is a good company, so it's conceivable RP may actually improve over time.
 
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

If what the tech said is actually true (the group 4/5 basestocks), then maybe their 0W-20's VI is low(er/ish) because they add NO VIIs at all, and count on the basestock blend to give them their total VI level (like MPT does)???
21.gif


Actually their 0W-20 with it's 177 VI is higher than most traditionally formulated 0W-20's like M1 and PP so it certainly uses polymer thickeners just not the latest very high VI PMA type.
The claim that all their oils are PAO/GP V based I don't believe. For example their 5w30 has a MRV of only 25,200cP. There are dino's with a MRV in that area. By comparison the GP III based Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 has a MRV of only 13,300cP. Now RP's 5W-40 may be PAO based since it has a MRV of 13,340cP.
That's the thing about RP, there is a lot of inconsistency in their product line. If they had more complete PDS info including NOACK and HTHSV then if they do have some particularly well formulated oils they would stand out. As it stands, with a couple of exceptions, I'm generally not impressed.



Not saying you are wrong but it's a pretty big thing to blatantly and publicly lie about the composition of the basestocks. I don't disagree with your assessment of the specs necessarily but to lie when a direct question is posed... big stuff that could be publicly proven to be a lie.

Jim I'm just pointing out that their products vary a lot in composition. One should also note that the RP email didn't say they used GP IV & V base oils exclusively. A more pointed question such as, do you use any GP III or even some GP II oils in any of your formulations would be more telling.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

Actually their 0W-20 with it's 177 VI is higher than most traditionally formulated 0W-20's like M1 and PP so it certainly uses polymer thickeners just not the latest very high VI PMA type.


In your opinion how do you think their 0W20 stacks up? I'm just about out of Castrol EDGE 0W20 SM and thought the RP deal with a filter for $35 might just be the ticket for my Jeep. Thanks

If you liked the ultra high 220 VI Castrol EDGE, the RP 0W-20 with it's 177 VI will of course be a much heavier oil on start-up and likely at operating temp's.
The Toyota 0W-20 (216 VI) which was the target market of the Castrol EDGE 0W-20 is coming down in price with many Toyota/Lexus dealers and is being supplied in bulk to them now as well. One member mentioned getting a super deal buying the bulk oil from his dealer.
Mazda has just come out with a new Idemitsu made high moly, 225 VI, 0W-20 which is reasonably priced in the 6 bucks/qt range on a case, so that's another option. Check out the thread below:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2775466&page=1
 
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Has the 0W-20 Castrol EDGE always had that high VI since it's inception??
confused2.gif
(FIRST I'm hearing about it-guess I have not been paying attention.)


The SM Castrol EDGE 0W20 had the high VI since inception, however the SN 0W20 formula is run of the mill at best. JMO
 
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Has the 0W-20 Edge always had that high VI since it's inception??
confused2.gif
(FIRST I'm hearing about it-guess I have not been paying attention.)

It was only available for a short period of time (about a year) before it was reformulated in it's current 162 VI SN form. It's interesting that Castrol went from the highest VI 0W-20 at the time to one of the lowest in the span of a year. Like most corporate reasons, it undoubtedly came down to cost as the very high VI polymethacrylates (PMA) polymers that are required to generate such high VI finished oils are very much more expensive
than the more commonly use lower VI olefin copolymers.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I've used some RP products in the past and currently run their SyncroMax gear lub' in my BMW's gearbox with good results.
I


I am also running Synchromax in my bimmer's manual transmission with excellent results.
 
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