E0 or Top tier? Which would be better?

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
I thought Methanol in fuels was banned. I could be wrong.

They can; they're just not allowed to use a lot, and it's still harsh, in my view. It's unfortunate that my G37 didn't like it, since my Petro-Canada MC gave me a healthy discount and healthy Petro-Points (that MC is now withdrawn, and the replacement Visa gives an even healthier cash back at any gas station). Also, the hours that virtually all the Petro-Canada stations are open are very convenient for me. Oh well, the Shell near me is open late enough most times, and the 24H ones aren't too inconveniently located.

 

[StevieC]

It says in my owners manual not to use gas that contains methanol. Not happy about that.

I thought that gas line anti-freeze was alcohol based. I should read labels more often.

 

[StevieC]

Found this and thought I would share: http://www.methanol.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Blending-Handling-Bulletin-Final.pdf

Quote:
Many companies have examined the effect of gasoline blends at high concentrations of methanol (such as M15) on various
materials found in automotive fuel and in gasoline distribution systems. Also, considerable commercial experience for 5%
methanol blends was acquired during the 1980’s. Except for a few materials, no significant detrimental effects were noted
for most of the tested materials or in commercial practice. Based on experience developed by the oil refining industry, Table
3 lists the recommendations for commonly used materials in the storage, handling and distribution of gasoline that may
contain 5% methanol. Gasoline blends containing 15 volume percent methanol (M15) have also been successfully distributed
in the market place for multi-year periods of time during the late 1970’s and early 1980’s as part as large commercial market
trials. In some cases, the M15 gasoline blends were refinery blended, and shipped via railcars and barges. In other cases, a
premix of methanol, co-solvents and corrosion inhibitors were blended at the fuel product distribution terminals in the
trucks used to supply gasoline to the retail gasoline stations. In more recent years, China has commercially introduce M15
by blending fuel methanol (with co-solvents and inhibitors) into gasoline at the fuel product distribution terminals. The
blending of fuel methanol at gasoline distribution terminals is discussed later.


(PAGE 10)

 

[jhellwig]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
I thought Methanol in fuels was banned. I could be wrong.

You might be thinking of MTBE.
Originally Posted By: StevieC
It says in my owners manual not to use gas that contains methanol. Not happy about that.

I thought that gas line anti-freeze was alcohol based. I should read labels more often.

There are two types of gas line antifreeze. Yellow bottled methanol and red bottled alcohol. Run e10 and you don’t need either.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
It says in my owners manual not to use gas that contains methanol. Not happy about that.

I'm not exactly happy, either. Most manuals I've read pretty much have nothing nice to say about methanol in fuel. Despite the link you provided, which is probably a lobby group or trade organization, however you want to characterise it, I see oil companies market ethanol, market nitrogen chemistry, and so forth, but I've not seen any trumpet methanol.

Originally Posted By: StevieC
I thought that gas line anti-freeze was alcohol based. I should read labels more often.

They all are alcohol. It just varies as to what kind. Old school gas line antifreeze was methanol, and that's declined significantly, again, despite what its proponents might say. The more reputable gas line antifreeze products on the shelf switched to isopropanol many years ago. There was also talk about sensor compatibility being a reason to warn against methanol based gas line antifreeze.

 

[Nyogtha]

Originally Posted By: jhellwig
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: StevieC
I wish Petro Canada had ethanol free premium.

They do, at least in this province. However, they use something decidedly worse for their winter gas, which I suspect was the root of my problems.
.

Butane injection is done in the states when the temps get low. I think there are some other ‘anes that are added in various places also. I suspect that some of this causes some of the issues that people attribute to ethanol in certain regions.


Butane is used as s gasoline blending component year-round in the States. However, in summer refineries produce more normal butane than they can blend with and the excess goes to storage. In colder months refineries blend more butane into gasoline than they produce, pulling normal butane from storage.

Some refineries seperate isopentane as a separate gasoline blending component, most do not.

There are mane -anes in motor gasoline, with many isomers.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: StevieC
I thought that gas line anti-freeze was alcohol based. I should read labels more often.

They all are alcohol. It just varies as to what kind. Old school gas line antifreeze was methanol, and that's declined significantly, again, despite what its proponents might say. The more reputable gas line antifreeze products on the shelf switched to isopropanol many years ago. There was also talk about sensor compatibility being a reason to warn against methanol based gas line antifreeze.


Sorry I meant straight alcohol

 

[jhellwig]

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
Originally Posted By: jhellwig
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: StevieC
I wish Petro Canada had ethanol free premium.

They do, at least in this province. However, they use something decidedly worse for their winter gas, which I suspect was the root of my problems.
.

Butane injection is done in the states when the temps get low. I think there are some other ‘anes that are added in various places also. I suspect that some of this causes some of the issues that people attribute to ethanol in certain regions.


Butane is used as s gasoline blending component year-round in the States. However, in summer refineries produce more normal butane than they can blend with and the excess goes to storage. In colder months refineries blend more butane into gasoline than they produce, pulling normal butane from storage.

Some refineries seperate isopentane as a separate gasoline blending component, most do not.

There are mane -anes in motor gasoline, with many isomers.
We don’t do butane injection at any of my terminals in the midwest summer or winter. I should say that additional butane blending is not done at the terminal level in the summer. It changes the rvp. The bigger areas on the east coast do it a lot but they deal with many different rvp grades at once.

 

[StevieC]

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Sorry I meant straight alcohol

Selling straight ethanol as a gas line antifreeze carries both regulatory and practical concerns, which is why we won't see it.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Originally Posted By: StevieC

And I get the same effect by using E85 with no top tier additives. Far less carbon to build up. Also, having a PCV line filtration system (catch can) on my vehicles reduces the need as well. Far less gunk going into the intake to cause build up on intake valves.

 

[Garak]

There's one problem with that. StevieC is in Canada, and there's one station in all of Canada that sells E85, and that's assuming he has a flex fuel vehicle in the first place. One station in all of Canada makes E85 about as practical to most Canadians as cold fusion or flying cars.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Garak
There's one problem with that. StevieC is in Canada, and there's one station in all of Canada that sells E85, and that's assuming he has a flex fuel vehicle in the first place. One station in all of Canada makes E85 about as practical to most Canadians as cold fusion or flying cars.


There's gotta be two! Because there's one just off the highway in Cornwall, LMAO!

 

[StevieC]

I have filled up with E85 in the 2012 Caravan when I was in Ohio visiting friends. (It's flex fuel rated) It had issues starting in cold weather and required extended cranking and playing with the gas pedal to get it started. I read in the manual it recommends plugging it in during cold temperatures to aid in starting it when running on E-85. I think this is why we have virtually no E-85 offered up here. That and I think our corn is nowhere near subsidized like it is south of the border which is also most likely why we still use sugar instead of HFCS in processed / manufactured food stuffs.

 

[Building3]

Sunoco Ethanol Free 90 is both Top Tier and ethanol free. I saw it at a Sunoco station near me and I did not believe it. I called the Sunoco tech hot line and the person confirmed its really Sunoco and really Top Tier with no ethanol. He said it is their 91 and higher gasoline before they add the ethanol to raise the octane. So it has all of the additives to make it Top Tier.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
There's gotta be two! Because there's one just off the highway in Cornwall, LMAO!

Maybe that's the only one.

There certainly isn't one out here. The one I know of is somewhere in Ontario, and it could be in Cornwall. But, would you want to be tied to only one fuelling station? When I had LPG back in the day, and still strange hours, I was okay in Regina here with there being one 24 H fuelling station near my parents' house. In Saskatoon, I was in trouble and definitely had to plan things carefully. Daytime was fine, but if I did need a fill late at night, I had to drive across town.

CNG would be a nightmare here, and trying to rely on E85 would be worse. The point is, there certainly are alternative fuels, and one can argue about their benefits and drawbacks all day and all night. If you can't buy the fuel in the first place, none of that is very relevant, and E85, from a Canadian standpoint, is worse than useless.

I think StevieC's point about cold weather might be an issue, too. While we do have an ethanol mandate in just about every province, I don't think we have such excess ethanol capacity that we have lobby groups desperate to dump it. If they think they can sell it, go ahead. If they need assistance, don't pick my pocket for it. With the oil reserves in this province and a refinery a few miles from my house, and gas stations clustered everywhere, E85 is an answer to a question I didn't ask.

If E85 had a free market future in this country, Husky/Mohawk would have done it already.

 

[MRtv]

Originally Posted By: gizzsdad
If price were no object, I would choose E0 all day. My problem is, around here 87 E0 is 40 - 45 cents above 87 E10. I have had multiple vehicles have problems on E10, and all went away completely after changing to E0.

Many, if not most, OPE mechanics say many of the problem engines they see are related to ethanol fuels.

So my OPE engines get stabilized E0, the cars get top tier fuel. My Maxima recommends 91 fuel, and several stations around here prominently advertise NON-Ethanol premium.

Interestingly, my Maxima OM specifically states that using anything above E10 voids the warranty.


With that we have a federal government who wants to start making us use E15 while telling us everything will be just fine. Meanwhile the automotive industry tells us it won't be fine. I trust the car makers more than some bureaucrat in DC or state office.

 

[StevieC]

My Toyota gas cap says not to use anything with more than E-15 in it.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Originally Posted by StevieC
My Toyota gas cap says not to use anything with more than E-15 in it.


Then don't.

 

[StevieC]

I was responding to the post above.