Dropped the oil pan and found some bits- need help identifying (BMW M5 (F10) at 39k miles)

[Bozman52]

In my never ending attempt to keep the S63 engine from grenading itself, I did some preventative maintenence to ensure the oil pickup tube was clear and not blocked by debris. A blocked oil pickup has been known to kill a few of these engines, so as it's not that big of a deal to drop the lower oil pan, I did so at the last oil change. The pics below show what I found in the bottom of it.

As things go, there were no horrible surprises, and thankfully the oil pickup was completely clear. However, I'm trying to determine what these black bits are that I had lingering about the pan. I initially thought it was chunks of the form-a-gasket stuff, but as the oil pan gasket is a legit one-piece metal gasket, this didn't make sense. Upon picking up the bits, they felt more like thin shavings of hard plastic, but were very brittle.

My next thought was that they may be bits from the timing chain guide. However, although the guide is plastic, it is a lighter brown color- not black. Perhaps the bits are from this and just have been stained black from sitting in engine oil?

The car has given me zero issues during my two years of ownership, and also was exceptionally well maintained by the previous owner, so I have no reason to suspect anything is wrong. Nonetheless, it's never great to find bits floating around the oil pan, so I'm just wondering if anyone here has any ideas as to what this material may be. I actually kept some of them just in case there is a way to send them somewhere for an analysis, although that may be overkill.

 

[Bailes1992]

Look like bits of timing chain guide to me! Can you get a borescope up there to take a look?

 

[Rand]

What was the purpose of dropping the oil pan? Just because? or did you suspect something?

 

[Bozman52]

Look like bits of timing chain guide to me! Can you get a borescope up there to take a look?

With the pan off, I probably could have gotten a scope up top to take a look, but no chance now. I did just find a new view of the timing chain guides from the top side of the engine and the whole unit is actually black, but the part the chain makes constant contact with is brown. From the bottom of the engine, all I could see was the brown part. I did check the tension of the chain by trying to pull it from the sprocket and it was very secure with no play. However, timing chain guide bits were my thoughts, but figured it couldn't hurt to ask others.

 

[Bozman52]

What was the purpose of dropping the oil pan? Just because? or did you suspect something?

I wanted to make sure the oil pickup was clear of debris. A clogged pickup has been the culprit of some engine failures on this platform, so it was really just a peace of mind I was after . . . and obviously to unclog it if there was an issue, which there was not.

The black, oblong circular thing in the pic below is the oil pickup (this is the bottom of the engine, as it's upside down on a stand in this photo). There is a metal mesh screen inside the pickup that prevents bits from actually getting recirculated into the engine, but it can get clogged and also prevent the right amount of oil from being recirculated as well, which is when things go boom

 

[Mainia]

Could it be the some of the black outer casing plastic seemingly holding the brown timing chain plastic guides?

 

[Dave P.]

I spent a summer many moons ago working in a small plastics factory. They made items such as ash trays, can openers, bell covers, etc. Any time a finished piece came out of the mold, there was always a slight bit of excess plastic that was squeezed out but still part of the product along the edges. It was called "flashing". During the finishing process, the flashing was to be removed by a sanding wheel and then polished.
Perhaps your chain guides had a little flashing that the chain movement cleaned up and it dropped in the pan. Of course, I would hope that chain guides going into an engine have better quality control than an ashtray factory but one never knows.

 

[B6_Dolphin]

FWIW - pictures of the Genuine BMW Guide Rails on the ECS Tuning site:

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-bmw-parts/timing-chain-guide-rail-cylinders-1-4/11317594909/

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-bmw-parts/timing-chain-guide-rail-cylinders-5-8/11317594899/

 

[Bozman52]

Thanks to Mania and Dave P. for the additional input. Both comments are totally valid and could very well be the culprit (although I would surely hope BMW would not put unfinshied plastic parts into any of their engines, but especially an M engine!).

B6_Dolphin, great find on the full pics of the guides! There are clearly some black raised edges along the guide that help keep the chains in place. I'd say it's quite likely the shavings are from this. It previously only looked like the chains contacted the brown part, hence my confusion with the color of what I found in the pan.

Assuming these are timing chain guide bits, I'd like to think the amount I'm seeing is relatively normal for an engine. Anyone have insights on this?

 

[edyvw]

Thanks to Mania and Dave P. for the additional input. Both comments are totally valid and could very well be the culprit (although I would surely hope BMW would not put unfinshied plastic parts into any of their engines, but especially an M engine!).

B6_Dolphin, great find on the full pics of the guides! There are clearly some black raised edges along the guide that help keep the chains in place. I'd say it's quite likely the shavings are from this. It previously only looked like the chains contacted the brown part, hence my confusion with the color of what I found in the pan.

Assuming these are timing chain guide bits, I'd like to think the amount I'm seeing is relatively normal for an engine. Anyone have insights on this?

Don't fall for wishful thinking. No amount of plastic should be there.
When you said the vehicle was well-maintained, how? What oil was used? What oil do you use?
N/S63 as you know, are problematic, to say the least. What year is that? Is it TU2?

 

[Marcozi]

Do you know the maintenance history? That plastic in your pix is dark, almost black. The guides in the pix appear to be brown.

 

[Bozman52]

Don't fall for wishful thinking. No amount of plastic should be there.
When you said the vehicle was well-maintained, how? What oil was used? What oil do you use?
N/S63 as you know, are problematic, to say the least. What year is that? Is it TU2?

Given that BMW engines are known for shattering timing chain guides, I'd take a few shards as a win . . . but I definitely hear what you're saying and would prefer to see nothing in the pan. I bought the car privately and the previous owner was as neurotic as me, although he took it to a BMW dealership for servicing (I have all the records). The guy was quite literally a rocket scientist, so I'd like to think he had a solid understanding of how engines should be maintained. He was definitely aware of all the issues with the car and did his part to mitigate them. As M5 owners go, this was about as solid of a guy as you can find to buy from.

The dealership used BMW Twin Power Turbo 0W-30 oil, which I believe is made by Shell. This is technically the current recommended oil from BMW, although they have also recommended a 0W-40 at some point in the past for the car. I've done two oil changes in the car since I've had it. The first was with Ravenol VMP 5W-30 (oil analysis can be found here: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...bmw-m5-s63tu-4-4l-39k-mi.397272/#post-7292858). Now it's running a slightly heavier Ravenol VST 5W-40.

The car is a 2015, so it has the most updated version of the S63 engine for the F10 platform. I believe the full engine code is: S63B44T0. I think the "T2" variant was only on the X5M/X6M vehicles. I'm not clear exactly on what the slight differences are bewteen them, but I know that on some of these cars the timing chain tension needed to be manually adjusted by dropping the oil pan. On the M5, the timing chain had an auto tensioner. The manual tension thing may have been on the early X5M/X5M cars, though (at least that's my suspicion).

 

[Bozman52]

Do you know the maintenance history? That plastic in your pix is dark, almost black. The guides in the pix appear to be brown.

See posts 8 and 9 for some details on this. It appears some of the guide that makes contact with the chain is actually black.

 

[edyvw]

Given that BMW engines are known for shattering timing chain guides, I'd take a few shards as a win . . . but I definitely hear what you're saying and would prefer to see nothing in the pan. I bought the car privately and the previous owner was as neurotic as me, although he took it to a BMW dealership for servicing (I have all the records). The guy was quite literally a rocket scientist, so I'd like to think he had a solid understanding of how engines should be maintained. He was definitely aware of all the issues with the car and did his part to mitigate them. As M5 owners go, this was about as solid of a guy as you can find to buy from.

The dealership used BMW Twin Power Turbo 0W-30 oil, which I believe is made by Shell. This is technically the current recommended oil from BMW, although they have also recommended a 0W-40 at some point in the past for the car. I've done two oil changes in the car since I've had it. The first was with Ravenol VMP 5W-30 (oil analysis can be found here: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...bmw-m5-s63tu-4-4l-39k-mi.397272/#post-7292858). Now it's running a slightly heavier Ravenol VST 5W-40.

The car is a 2015, so it has the most updated version of the S63 engine for the F10 platform. I believe the full engine code is: S63B44T0

BMW engines are not known for destroying guides, except first version of N20/26, and N47, and in some cases this engine.
In N/S63 ONLY oil that should be used is minimum 40 grade. BMW moved to LL01FE and it was CAFE driven decision. LL01 is the only way to go, with higher HTHS and ZDDP package. Ravenol 5W40 is good choice in this case. Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40, Motul X-Cess 5W40 GEN2.
Personally, I would go HPL Euro 5W40.

 

[Bozman52]

BMW engines are not known for destroying guides, except first version of N20/26, and N47, and in some cases this engine.
In N/S63 ONLY oil that should be used is minimum 40 grade. BMW moved to LL01FE and it was CAFE driven decision. LL01 is the only way to go, with higher HTHS and ZDDP package. Ravenol 5W40 is good choice in this case. Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40, Motul X-Cess 5W40 GEN2.
Personally, I would go HPL Euro 5W40.

For European cars, BMW recommends LL04 oils instead of LL01 due to the lower sulpher content in the fuels. My car is in the UK, so falls under the LL04 spec. I appreciate they are largely interchangeable, but this was one of my dilemmas when choosing a new oil for the car. However, BMW will put 0W-30 LL04 in the car if you take it to a dealership for an oil change.

The N47 was the engine I was thinking of when I referred to timing chain guide issues. In fairness, my comment was rather broad and I can't necessarily say which engines are and are not suffering from this issue.

I also strongly considered Motul X-Cess 5W-40 instead of the Ravenol VST. I actually had a really poor experience with Ravenol in Germany/UK when trying to ask some technical questions, to the point where if I hadn't already bought the VST oil I would have boycotted the company. This may be the last batch of Ravenol I ever use because of that experience.

I think it may be very difficult/expensive to source HPL oil in the UK, as it appears to be a US-based company, but I appreciate the recommendation nonetheless. This was not an oil that was even on my radar, to be honest.

 

[edyvw]

For European cars, BMW recommends LL04 oils instead of LL01 due to the lower sulpher content in the fuels. My car is in the UK, so falls under the LL04 spec. I appreciate they are largely interchangeable, but this was one of my dilemmas when choosing a new oil for the car. However, BMW will put 0W-30 LL04 in the car if you take it to a dealership for an oil change.

The N47 was the engine I was thinking of when I referred to timing chain guide issues. In fairness, my comment was rather broad and I can't necessarily say which engines are and are not suffering from this issue.

I also strongly considered Motul X-Cess 5W-40 instead of the Ravenol VST. I actually had a really poor experience with Ravenol in Germany/UK when trying to ask some technical questions, to the point where if I hadn't already bought the VST oil I would have boycotted the company. This may be the last batch of Ravenol I ever use because of that experience.

I think it may be very difficult/expensive to source HPL oil in the UK, as it appears to be a US-based company, but I appreciate the recommendation nonetheless. This was not an oil that was even on my radar, to be honest.

Ah yeah. When I saw your oil analysis I realized you are in UK.
Shell Helix 5W40, Mobil1 0W40. Ravenol is very stout oil. I wouldn’t get discouraged by poor customer service. Ut is PAO based, usually very high HTHS, low Noack.
As for LL04 or LL01, in S63 doesn’t matter. I would go LL01 simply bcs. additive package might be more robust. Ravenol VST 5W40 is IMO excellent product. Very high HTHS, obviously PAO based. There is only so much oil can do to mitigate engineering issues, but I would say VST is good as it gets.

 

[Exhaustgases]

All German auto engines cheap design, and expensive cost. No thanks, not for me.

 

[FranklinJL]

Timing Chain Guide Material, Ive seen it first hand myself. Thats not much at all. Is youre engine stock? If so, I wouldnt worry about it. If modded, run 40wt oil only, run about 10k and pull the pan again....modded S63s will eat that guide up, Id fix it. Under 700hp, youre good

 

[FranklinJL]

Ah yeah. When I saw your oil analysis I realized you are in UK.
Shell Helix 5W40, Mobil1 0W40. Ravenol is very stout oil. I wouldn’t get discouraged by poor customer service. Ut is PAO based, usually very high HTHS, low Noack.
As for LL04 or LL01, in S63 doesn’t matter. I would go LL01 simply bcs. additive package might be more robust. Ravenol VST 5W40 is IMO excellent product. Very high HTHS, obviously PAO based. There is only so much oil can do to mitigate engineering issues, but I would say VST is good as it gets.

VST is a very good oil, probably best they can get over there for those smaller boosted V8s Audi, Mercedes, and BMW like to use

 

[factorytuned2012]

In my never ending attempt to keep the S63 engine from grenading itself, I did some preventative maintenence to ensure the oil pickup tube was clear and not blocked by debris. A blocked oil pickup has been known to kill a few of these engines, so as it's not that big of a deal to drop the lower oil pan, I did so at the last oil change. The pics below show what I found in the bottom of it.

As things go, there were no horrible surprises, and thankfully the oil pickup was completely clear. However, I'm trying to determine what these black bits are that I had lingering about the pan. I initially thought it was chunks of the form-a-gasket stuff, but as the oil pan gasket is a legit one-piece metal gasket, this didn't make sense. Upon picking up the bits, they felt more like thin shavings of hard plastic, but were very brittle.

My next thought was that they may be bits from the timing chain guide. However, although the guide is plastic, it is a lighter brown color- not black. Perhaps the bits are from this and just have been stained black from sitting in engine oil?

The car has given me zero issues during my two years of ownership, and also was exceptionally well maintained by the previous owner, so I have no reason to suspect anything is wrong. Nonetheless, it's never great to find bits floating around the oil pan, so I'm just wondering if anyone here has any ideas as to what this material may be. I actually kept some of them just in case there is a way to send them somewhere for an analysis, although that may be overkill.

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Could it be that special M break-in oil