Goes to show you that no matter how much good information is out there, people will still make stupid comments and recommendations. Turbo temperatures (the non water-cooled ones) and people not cooling down turbos cooks mineral oil much more than synthetics.
Don't use synthetic in a turbo car!
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Originally Posted By: widman
Goes to show you that no matter how much good information is out there, people will still make stupid comments and recommendations. Turbo temperatures (the non water-cooled ones) and people not cooling down turbos cooks mineral oil much more than synthetics.
That's great and all but it hasn't been proven a stupid comment. The guy in question has many times the engine building and racing experience most people do. What enthusiast doesn't cool the turbo down before shutting it down? Conventional oil was recommended to a guy that already knows a lot about cars and it's assumed he's not going to shut it down immediately after a run.
Goes to show you that no matter how much good information is out there, people will still make stupid comments and recommendations. Turbo temperatures (the non water-cooled ones) and people not cooling down turbos cooks mineral oil much more than synthetics.
That's great and all but it hasn't been proven a stupid comment. The guy in question has many times the engine building and racing experience most people do. What enthusiast doesn't cool the turbo down before shutting it down? Conventional oil was recommended to a guy that already knows a lot about cars and it's assumed he's not going to shut it down immediately after a run.
People often have strong opinions in areas completely outside their real expertise.
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: widman
Goes to show you that no matter how much good information is out there, people will still make stupid comments and recommendations. Turbo temperatures (the non water-cooled ones) and people not cooling down turbos cooks mineral oil much more than synthetics.
That's great and all but it hasn't been proven a stupid comment. The guy in question has many times the engine building and racing experience most people do. What enthusiast doesn't cool the turbo down before shutting it down? Conventional oil was recommended to a guy that already knows a lot about cars and it's assumed he's not going to shut it down immediately after a run.
I don't think it is a stupid comment as much as an uneducated comment. Doesn't sound like there is anything to back up his statement. It's like a very well respected mechanic making a statement to never use Pennzoil. Such a broad statement is rarely accurate.
I also agree with an earlier post. Just because he is an expert on GNs doesn't make him an expert on lubrication.
Originally Posted By: widman
Goes to show you that no matter how much good information is out there, people will still make stupid comments and recommendations. Turbo temperatures (the non water-cooled ones) and people not cooling down turbos cooks mineral oil much more than synthetics.
That's great and all but it hasn't been proven a stupid comment. The guy in question has many times the engine building and racing experience most people do. What enthusiast doesn't cool the turbo down before shutting it down? Conventional oil was recommended to a guy that already knows a lot about cars and it's assumed he's not going to shut it down immediately after a run.
I don't think it is a stupid comment as much as an uneducated comment. Doesn't sound like there is anything to back up his statement. It's like a very well respected mechanic making a statement to never use Pennzoil. Such a broad statement is rarely accurate.
I also agree with an earlier post. Just because he is an expert on GNs doesn't make him an expert on lubrication.
Originally Posted By: Patman
Just to clarify things here, is this guy claiming not to use synthetics in a turbo car because it'll harm things? And if so, what would the harm be?
OR-is he simply saying that synthetic oil is not a necessity in a turbo car?
Because there is a big difference between those two assertions.
Good question. Synthetics are rarely "needed". They are used for their advantages but that doesn't mean most of us couldn't do just fine with dino.
Just to clarify things here, is this guy claiming not to use synthetics in a turbo car because it'll harm things? And if so, what would the harm be?
OR-is he simply saying that synthetic oil is not a necessity in a turbo car?
Because there is a big difference between those two assertions.
Good question. Synthetics are rarely "needed". They are used for their advantages but that doesn't mean most of us couldn't do just fine with dino.
Hot Rodders are generally creatures of habit, and product loyal. The chances of changing some old timers minds about what oil product to use would be equivalent of trying to talk a Rabbi into becoming a Priest. It isn’t going to happen!
People need to go back and read this whole thread before making judgements. BuickGN has corroborated this person's experience in saying that he has seen less wear in his own engines on conventional than he did when using synthetic. Yes, there are other factors, but actual wear based on teardowns is always excellent evidence as to what is working best. The experienced engine builder being discussed here, who originated the advice, probably has had similar observations. I am seeing a lot of knee-jerk comments here to the effect that he probably lacks the knowledge or understanding to come to this conclusion and, in effect, that we know better.
Is it possible that conventional oils are protecting these engines better against wear?
Is it possible that conventional oils are protecting these engines better against wear?
What is conventional vs. syn right now? The line is blurring more and more. Is GrpII+ a conventional and a low end GrpIII a syn? Technically yes, but does the engine notice the difference?
Flat statements like that being discussed here have way too many qualifiers to make sense.
Flat statements like that being discussed here have way too many qualifiers to make sense.
Originally Posted By: wgtoys
People often have strong opinions in areas completely outside their real expertise.
People often have strong opinions in areas completely within their real expertise as well!
People often have strong opinions in areas completely outside their real expertise.
People often have strong opinions in areas completely within their real expertise as well!
My vortech supercharged mustang uses synthetic oil. The oil gets extremely hot,as it has to lubricate the motor,PLUS the interal gears inside of the supercharger.
The gear teeth are CNC precision ground. The internal step-up drive system is engineered to reliably support impeller speeds exceeding 70,000 rpm.
There's no way I'll trust a conventional oil to stand up to this kind of abuse.
The gear teeth are CNC precision ground. The internal step-up drive system is engineered to reliably support impeller speeds exceeding 70,000 rpm.
There's no way I'll trust a conventional oil to stand up to this kind of abuse.
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Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: wgtoys
People often have strong opinions in areas completely outside their real expertise.
People often have strong opinions in areas completely within their real expertise as well!
Obviously both of these occur. But opinions, whether sensibly formed or irrationally formed, are "reasoned". The rationally formed opinion associates some cause and effect relationship ..but doesn't prove it. It doesn't make it necessarily valid for the reasons assigned to it.
Originally Posted By: wgtoys
People often have strong opinions in areas completely outside their real expertise.
People often have strong opinions in areas completely within their real expertise as well!
Obviously both of these occur. But opinions, whether sensibly formed or irrationally formed, are "reasoned". The rationally formed opinion associates some cause and effect relationship ..but doesn't prove it. It doesn't make it necessarily valid for the reasons assigned to it.
Good point Gary.
Originally Posted By: DragRace
My vortech supercharged mustang uses synthetic oil. The oil gets extremely hot,as it has to lubricate the motor,PLUS the interal gears inside of the supercharger.
The gear teeth are CNC precision ground. The internal step-up drive system is engineered to reliably support impeller speeds exceeding 70,000 rpm.
There's no way I'll trust a conventional oil to stand up to this kind of abuse.
That is why syn is used. Most everything is CNC machined.
My vortech supercharged mustang uses synthetic oil. The oil gets extremely hot,as it has to lubricate the motor,PLUS the interal gears inside of the supercharger.
The gear teeth are CNC precision ground. The internal step-up drive system is engineered to reliably support impeller speeds exceeding 70,000 rpm.
There's no way I'll trust a conventional oil to stand up to this kind of abuse.
That is why syn is used. Most everything is CNC machined.
Originally Posted By: Brett Miller
Maybe John Force is his neighbor?
John Force Racing uses Synteq exclusively....... So that does not work.
Maybe John Force is his neighbor?
John Force Racing uses Synteq exclusively....... So that does not work.
He was being sarcastic.
I don't necessarily trust some manufacturer's OCI. Mazda says that I can go 7500 miles on my DI 2.3 Turbo motor with whatever they use (most likely dino, possibly a blend at best). Considering this engine is known to have fuel dilution problems that seems like an outrageously long time for a non-synthetic oil. I put pp in it to combat the fuel dilution and will be running it for 4k miles and doing a used oil analysis.
Good move. I wouldn't be surprised if you get more than 4k out of it.
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I would imagine that manufacturers like GM and Ford who for many specific performance applications, like the LSx engines in the 'vette, and Ford's Mustang Cobra's/Shelby GT500 would not REQUIRE the use of a Synthetic oil unless there was a reason behind it.
Like the GN in question, these are factory-built performance engines, which often get pushed to to the limit with the stock internals. I know of a local Mustang tuner who recently sold his stock engined '03 Termi, which he had a set of twins on and was making ~800RWHP on pump gas.
I think this may simply be an opinion-based scenario?
I understand the experience aspect of course, but unless the engines that he's torn down were owned by the same person, driven the same way and treated in the exact same fashion, making the exact same power, then it really cannot be as cut and dry as to which lubricant is superior to the other.... At least in my opinion, as these things all need to be weighed-in.
In the Mustang community there are many engine builders that swear by different lubricants because of their own personal experience with their own cars or engines they have rebuilt on a consistent basis for customers. If the person is just rebuilding the same engine over and over again, and it's making the same power, and they are trying different lubricants, I would think this is a somewhat valid comparison, and that is exactly what is going on with some of these customers.
I have a friend who's engine builder told him specifically NOT to run a synthetic and to run Castrol GTX 20w50 in his Nitrous motor.
My cam grinder, a well-known name in racing circles, runs Mobil 1 0w20 in his stuff.
From what I've observed, it would APPEAR as though more builders DO recommend the use of Synthetic than those who do NOT. But there are, like my buddy's builder, people who steadfastly promote the use of a thick conventional oil and will tell people explicitly to NOT use a Synthetic.
Like the GN in question, these are factory-built performance engines, which often get pushed to to the limit with the stock internals. I know of a local Mustang tuner who recently sold his stock engined '03 Termi, which he had a set of twins on and was making ~800RWHP on pump gas.
I think this may simply be an opinion-based scenario?
I understand the experience aspect of course, but unless the engines that he's torn down were owned by the same person, driven the same way and treated in the exact same fashion, making the exact same power, then it really cannot be as cut and dry as to which lubricant is superior to the other.... At least in my opinion, as these things all need to be weighed-in.
In the Mustang community there are many engine builders that swear by different lubricants because of their own personal experience with their own cars or engines they have rebuilt on a consistent basis for customers. If the person is just rebuilding the same engine over and over again, and it's making the same power, and they are trying different lubricants, I would think this is a somewhat valid comparison, and that is exactly what is going on with some of these customers.
I have a friend who's engine builder told him specifically NOT to run a synthetic and to run Castrol GTX 20w50 in his Nitrous motor.
My cam grinder, a well-known name in racing circles, runs Mobil 1 0w20 in his stuff.
From what I've observed, it would APPEAR as though more builders DO recommend the use of Synthetic than those who do NOT. But there are, like my buddy's builder, people who steadfastly promote the use of a thick conventional oil and will tell people explicitly to NOT use a Synthetic.
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