Does conventional offer the same protection as synthetic?

[ARCOgraphite]

That doesn’t look good at all. It even looks slightly milky in the bottom pic but that may be the lighting.

Could it be the dreaded LIM leak on the 60deg V6? I would NOT say with confidence the car has no mechanical issues, just no known mechanical issues. I also don't know much about the later LG8 3.1 or if they had LIM issue like earlier gen given they used a new intake design.

 

[OVERKILL]

Excuse my obtuseness please, but as I understand - for now - a synthetic is more durable and stout, but, until conventional, as in your example, thickens due to oxidation, the protection against friction/wear it offers is the same as with synthetic... Right?

Within the confines of the same approvals, that SHOULD be the case. However, I gave you an example with M1 0w-40, which of course does not just carry A3/B4, it carries a myriad of OEM approvals which have stricter limits than A3/B4 and some of those limits (Porsche A40) include wear control under extreme conditions determined via simulated extended lapping of the Nurburgring, followed by tear-down with measurements.

Some of the OEM approvals can't be met with a conventional oil, so you won't be able to find a conventional and synthetic you can contrast.

Dave gave a very good example with a 4.6L Modular Ford, which is an engine that is low power density, has a very large sump and in general is going to be extremely easy on oil. In that engine, it would be unlikely that a synthetic and quality conventional changed at a 3K interval would yield different performance. In application, I had a 5.4L modular that was run on dealer bulk conventional before we bought it that had a decent amount of varnish on the heads. Running a synthetic resulted in significant carbonaceous accumulation in my oil filters for quite some time until it eventually tapered off. The assumption was that this was from the ring land area, and it is very similar if not identical to what @wwillson saw with his Durango when he started running HPL.

That does not mean that the Mobil lubes I was running were providing better wear protection than the dealer bulk conventional, but it does mean that the dealer conventional had experienced break-down that ultimately led to deposits, which would have negatively impacted oil control and may have increased blowby. The Mobil products were able to clean this up.

 

[AlphaOmega]

Why 3k OCI?
.

For simplicity and because a conventional oil is still going to be at near "full health" for that mileage/engine hours interval

 

[kschachn]

For simplicity and because a conventional oil is still going to be at near "full health" for that mileage/engine hours interval

Again what’s the ACEA A3/B4 conventional we are comparing here?

 

[AlphaOmega]

So that we are clear - I wasn’t asked to be a moderator because of my oil expertise.

I only meant "moderator" as an descriptor, since it is your job title on this forum, not as a qualifier . Will assign a heavier weight to the opinions of the two individuals you mentioned going forward!

 

[AlphaOmega]

They say a picture is worth a thousand words. Here's one from a 2000 Century which was very well maintained by the original owner, my father. OCIs were every 3,000 miles, dino oil. The car had no mechanical issues with the engine whatsoever at the time this picture was taken. Miles on the car at the time were ~80,000. I wasn't impressed with the dino oil's ability at all to keep that engine clean. I can only imagine what it would have looked like with 5,000 mile OCIs. View attachment 98974View attachment 98975

May I ask if your father accumulated miles as an average American driver does, which I think is 10/12k miles a year, meaning an oil change happened 3-4 times year? Do you know if the oil used was from a 3 major brands or from some smaller labels? Thanks

 

[AlphaOmega]

- Syns are superior at holding their vis in range, but that ONLY is a benefit if the conventional oil has been used long enough that it goes severly out of range; probably never going to happen in a 3k mile OCI.
- Syns are superior at cold start pumpability, but that NEVER is a benefit if it's not uber cold outside.
- Syns are superior at oxdiation control, but that NEVER is a benefit if the engine does not overheat, because "normal" expected operational temps are not a problem for conventional oils. (Note: some oxidation is good; it's what builds the TCB layers; SAE 2007-01-4133)

Mate, thank you so very much! The most perfect answer thus far. You understood my question exactly and answered it in a concise and encompassing manner! For a moment there I was questioning my ability to ask questions, given some of the responces (or some parts of some responces).

Prior to my asking, my uneducated instinct told me what kschachn later said:

As noted, wear isn’t an issue with any fully formulated motor oil.

But I wanted to hear an expanded version (or a refute) from knowledgeable people

 

[PimTac]

Again what’s the ACEA A3/B4 conventional we are comparing here?

The world wonders.

 

[AlphaOmega]

Again what’s the ACEA A3/B4 conventional we are comparing here?

There are Liqui Molly oils that are mineral or mostly mineral that are A3/B4. But my curiosity was in general if a new conventional oil offers the same wear protection as a synthetic does. Like if a metal to metal contact is prevented better by synthetic or not - yes, I realize I sound like a housewife, but I think you already understood what it is that I'm trying to ask here, more or less? Your answer that "wear isn’t an issue with any fully formulated motor oil" shows that you understood the gist

 

[AlphaOmega]

There's Castrol Edge 10w40 synthetic that is only A3/B4 rated and there are Liqui Molly 10w40 mineral oils that are A3/B4 rated.

 

[OVERKILL]

There's Castrol Edge 10w40 synthetic that is only A3/B4 rated and there are Liqui Molly 10w40 mineral oils that are A3/B4 rated.

Yes, one of the reasons is that many of the Euro approvals don't allow grades like 10w-40. Of course there are some that do, so in that case it's likely that the oil either doesn't meet the performance requirements, or the blender has chosen not to pursue them.

VW for example, you can see 501.01, 502 and 505 allow for 10w-xx:

 

[aquariuscsm]

I guess in layman's terms, dino will protect just as good at "wear protection" but synths will keep your engine internals "cleaner". Keeping your oil clean and full trumps brand to brand comparisons.

 

[FCD]

There are Liqui Molly oils that are mineral or mostly mineral that are A3/B4. But my curiosity was in general if a new conventional oil offers the same wear protection as a synthetic does. Like if a metal to metal contact is prevented better by synthetic or not - yes, I realize I sound like a housewife, but I think you already understood what it is that I'm trying to ask here, more or less? Your answer that "wear isn’t an issue with any fully formulated motor oil" shows that you understood the gist

In Europe for example Valvoline VR1 20W-50 is API SM and ACEA A3/B4.
Pretty much all the synthetic blend 10W-40s are A3/B3 or A3/B4, and even most 15W-40 Conventional oils are A3/B3 or A3/B4.

 

[930.engineering]

Why 3k OCI?

For simplicity and because a conventional oil is still going to
be at near "full health" for that mileage/engine hours interval

So, in other words, you'd change a synthetic every 5 or 6k?
.

 

[AlphaOmega]

So, in other words, you'd change a synthetic every 5 or 6k?
.

Depends. I used to live in Los Angeles. 5,000 miles in the city is significantly more engine hours vs 10,000 miles on uncluttered freeways of metro Cleveland where I live now. So in LA I changed synthetic every 5-6k. Here in metro Cleveland, currently I have semi synthetic and will change it tomorrow at roughly 5,500 miles on it. I'll fill a conventional and will do a change at 5-5,500 mi. If I'd still lived in Los Angeles, I'd plan on a ~3k interval. Now that's on my 29 year old car.

With lease vehicles I follow their oil life monitor and do a change between the remaining 5 and 10%. I usually stick to the recommend grade, unless owner's manual specs a heavier weight for the rest of the world, then I'll use that one. For example: I had a 2014 Mazda 6. US spec was 0w20, but rest of the world speced 5w30, so I used that

 

[Bill_W]

Depends. I used to live in Los Angeles. 5,000 miles in the city is significantly more engine hours vs 10,000 miles on uncluttered freeways of metro Cleveland where I live now. So in LA I changed synthetic every 5-6k. Here in metro Cleveland, currently I have semi synthetic and will change it tomorrow at roughly 5,500 miles on it. I'll fill a conventional and will do a change at 5-5,500 mi. If I'd still lived in Los Angeles, I'd plan on a ~3k interval. Now that's on my 29 year old car.

With lease vehicles I follow their oil life monitor and do a change between the remaining 5 and 10%. I usually stick to the recommend grade, unless owner's manual specs a heavier weight for the rest of the world, then I'll use that one. For example: I had a 2014 Mazda 6. US spec was 0w20, but rest of the world speced 5w30, so I used that

One thing the US specific is the fuel standard, the ethanol content. So the world standard for viscosity (5w-30) maybe not a perfect level. Mexico was 5w-30, now is 10w-30 for the Skyactiv. Also the OCI is different around the world and the 5w-30 mazda oil in Europe is a different formulation.

 

[OilUzer]

The bigger question is who sells dino anymore?

Even the Wal-Mart I go to doesn't have any. Syn-blend is the lowest I can find.
No disrespect intended towards Wal-Mart btw. lol

also another bigger question:
ignoring other benefits of syn, and only considering the oci extension, is it feasible to use dino anymore?
I would say No.

maybe some old cars and stuff need to run dino. No?

 

[demarpaint]

May I ask if your father accumulated miles as an average American driver does, which I think is 10/12k miles a year, meaning an oil change happened 3-4 times year? Do you know if the oil used was from a 3 major brands or from some smaller labels? Thanks

The car averaged about 10K miles/year. It was dealer serviced early on, then by a reliable local repair shop using brand name oil. My brother and I did a few oil changes for him too over the years using Pennzoil. I took title to the car, switched it to synthetic oil with 5K OCI's starting at about 80K miles.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

For simplicity and because a conventional oil is still going to be at near "full health" for that mileage/engine hours interval

I argue that in many applications at 5K the oil will be at "full health" meaning "serviceable".
ILSAC product is OLM ready. How many "smart OLM are triggering service at 3Kmiles/100hours?

5k and 10K are "simple" in my cluttered mind - but have little more than arbitrary meaning

 

[ARCOgraphite]

The bigger question is who sells dino anymore?

Even the Wal-Mart I go to doesn't have any. Syn-blend is the lowest I can find.
No disrespect intended towards Wal-Mart btw. lol

also another bigger question:
ignoring other benefits of syn, and only considering the oci extension, is it feasible to use dino anymore?
I would say No.

maybe some old cars and stuff need to run dino. No?

I have to make my old, tired argument again - just because I haven't made it in some time
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Your Dino motor oil is an alkane refined from "dino"

Your so-called synthetic product is typically a high purity alkane modeled and refined from "dino"
using advanced hydrocracking and hydroisomerisation

Your Shell GTL is an alkane made from "dino" gas reformed into process gas tuned into paraffin wax then oil.

Your Dino SAE 40 for your detroit diesel is an alkane refined from "dino"

"Dino" is crude petroleum

Alkane are: Heavier> Paraffin wax - mineral oil - Kerosene COLOR]

Classic synthetic base oil are:
PAO - excellent low temp fluidity, poor additive solubility
POE - Very high thermal stability, excellent additive solubility

All current ILSAC Motor oils are synthetic blends by the new marketing definition.
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Maybe that's not really an argument