Does 5w30 really offer better engine life?

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Originally Posted By: GMFan
Mobil 1 5w30 shears down to a 5w20 pretty much all the time, even before 3,000 miles sometimes. Most people who use 5w30 are basically driving with a 5w20 after a few thousand miles.

So are you saying if you start out with a 5W20 it shears down to a 5W10 ?
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
If a thinner oil provides better mileage isn't it reducing friction which would be causing engine wear?


That's a dang good question! I hope one of our experts will come along and answer it.
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The "friction" referred to is in terms of power required, not the contact of two metal surfaces that should never really meet.
 
Originally Posted By: PT1




That's what I said to the guys in Detroit but they said fluid film thickness at start up is more important unless your vehicle sits for days at a time. They also said 10w is better due to less VII's and that some of the 10w synthetics were as good at start up flow as the 5w oils.


I'm pretty sure that most of the 5w30 synthetics out there these days are made with little to no VII in them. That's why you don't see them thinning out very much in the UOAs these days.
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
If a thinner oil provides better mileage isn't it reducing friction which would be causing engine wear?


That's a dang good question! I hope one of our experts will come along and answer it.
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NO where near an expert, but you should do a search for a thread started by FrankN4 on Friction Modifiers. It has several links and a wealth of information, including the statement below. I had a difficult time understanding such a statement. Please search for that thread, a great education.

"ZDDP actually increases friction, even though it protects from wear. The idea of friction modifiers is to keep the parts off the ZDDP to keep things "slick" through very gentle "near misses" of surfaces. I'm not sure if or why they would have an effect on pumping."
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Tempest
 
So would it be better to go with a 5w30 versus a 10w30 at this point? I was considering getting the MaxLife 10w30 Full Syn tomorrow because I thought the 5w30's would shear too much. Am I wrong and would I be better off with the 5w30 variety?
 
Originally Posted By: coffee
So would it be better to go with a 5w30 versus a 10w30 at this point? I was considering getting the MaxLife 10w30 Full Syn tomorrow because I thought the 5w30's would shear too much. Am I wrong and would I be better off with the 5w30 variety?
In Arizona you will be just fine with 10w30, even if you go up in the mountains in winter.
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
The "friction" referred to is in terms of power required, not the contact of two metal surfaces that should never really meet.
...but are meeting on a regular basis in at least one part of an engine. Rings at top-dead-center being one of them. That very slow and then momentary zero velocity of the piston/rings near and at TDS allows the film to be breached. Startup also generally always allows parts to rub because they start from zero velocity and the crank is resting on the bearings.
 
I did a search of Mobil, Pennzoil, Valvoline, Havoline, and Quaker state. I picked these oils because that is what I believe is in the majority of cars on the American road. Unfortunately, the boutique and custom blended oils are unknown by most.
Of the above oils, only one 10W-30, that was not a high mileage oil, had a 100C cSt of 11.0. All the other 10W-30's were lower than 11, some only a 10, at 100C. The 5W-30 oils ran up into the 11.0-11.4 100C cSt range.

According to the Frequently Asked Questions, Ask An Expert, Technical Information, or whatever of the different brands web sites, the difference in Viscosity Index Improvers between a 5W-30 and a 10W-30 was very small and the 100C cSt of the 5W more than made up the difference..(the reason the 5W's have the higher 100C cSt?) I thought it took viscosity index improvers to make the difference but a manipulation of the base oils can make a difference. That is their talk, not mine.

The HTHS of non high mileage 5 and 10W oils was virtually identical. There were some 5W's that had a better HTHS and some 10W's that had the better HTHS.(I think HTHS is extremely important)

The viscosity index is a measure of how much the oil's viscosity changes as temperature changes. A higher viscosity index indicates the viscosity changes less with temperature than a lower viscosity index. The 5W-30's oils had the better average Viscosity Index over the 10W-30's, but, I think that is a property of the thicker base oil,(someone help me here)

I went back 100 pages(I was going to mow today but it has poured the rain)) on the UOA. I looked only at 5W and 10W in 30 grade oils, synthetic only, no high mileage oils. As you might think, extremely varied, but this is what I averaged out: (please note that this work is more lavatory than laboratory)

5W-30=average OCI=6311....average 100C cSt=9.63....average starting cSt=11.2....14.91% shear..HTHS 3.04

10W-30=average OCI=6133....average 100C cSt=9.57....average starting cSt=10.3....7.09% shear....HTHS 3.16

What this tells me is that most 10W oils will shear less, much less, than a 5W oil.

The oil companies, naturally, know this so they start the 5W's out with a higher 100C viscosity.

I said in an earlier post that I believed it would take a 5W-30 with a cSt of 11.3 more miles to shear sown than it would take a 10W-30 with a lower cSt to shear down. I was correct, but just barely. I had no idea that a modern synthetic 5W oil would actually shear this much and would have argued with anyone that said it would.(that is only the second time that I have been wrong. The first time is when I though I had made a miste.....mista....mistoo....error)

After about 6000 miles, the 5W and 10W are near equal with the 5W actually having a slight edge even though they shear considerably more. What I don't know is what is the by-product, if any, of shear down.

Without knowing and understanding the addative package, the above information is basically meaningless but kept me entertained for a while.

What we can't see on oil Company spec sheets, or at least most of them, is stuff like moly, boron, calcium, ZDDP. Some do not show Noack or TBN. We can ususally find ZDDP if we look hard enough of we can look for an ILSAC rateing.

I don't know if Gary or Pablo can tell us anything about Moly, Boron, and Calcium in the Amsoil top 5W-30 and 10W-30, but the rest of the specs are very impressive. The ATM spec, as to what it does show, looks like the best "STANDARD" 30 grade oil out there, giving the High Mileage oils a run.

If you look at the spec sheets, the 10W-30 high mileage oils stand out as compared to the "STANDARD" 10W-30 oils. They usually have excellent 40C and 100C cSt, VI, and HTHS. But most don't show TBN or Noack.

If I were going to use an over the counter 10W-30 oil, it would be Mobil 1 10W-30 High Mileage. If I were going to use a botique 10W-30 oil, it would be amsoil ATM. This based on what can be obtained from spec sheets and UOA.

Cofee
The full synthetic Maxlife is one of the high mileage/heavy duty type oils. It starts out higher than a 5W-30 and shears less.
 
Thanks for the info FrankN4! I may look into the Mobil 1 10w30 HM as I am sure it is just as good as the MaxLife Full Syn 10w30 and probably easier to get at WalMart.
 
Great post Frank! As your statistics show, there is a significant difference in shear stability of synthetic 10W-30 and 5W-30 oils of the same brand/quality, in general. Exceptions may apply of course but in general, yes.
 
Originally Posted By: coffee
Thanks, TallPaul.
Oh, I should add, that the Maxlife Synthetic, both 5w30 and 10w30, is rated ACEA A3 (unless they recently changed it), a very robust rating. I am one who takes excessive, stubborn pride in having given up on 5w30 several years ago and not having any on my shelf. However, I did give in and buy some Maxlife Synthetic 5w30 because it was going out for $3 a quart and has the ACEA A3 rating (which I think mostly is found on 40 weight oils). Still, would take the 10w30 if you have a choice.

We really would have to take a look at the base oil components. I suspect they used more PAO for the 5w30 Maxlife than in the 10w30 to meet the ACEA A3.

Also, I don't doubt the Mobil 1 High Mileage is a very good choice.
 
I have seen an oil report here where a 5w-20 was changed too late but I think that would only be a problem if that happened every oci. The simplest, cheapest solution is to change the oil every 4000 miles, or run a 30.
 
average mileages are as follows.

10w30
sample size 7
avg vis at 100 11.1
avg Fe/1000 miles 2.22
avg Pb/1000 miles 1.523
avg mileage 5158

5w30
sample size 8
avg vis at 100 9.63
avg Fe/1000 miles 3.57
avg Pb/1000 miles 0.342
avg mileage 7662

0w30
sample size 7
avg vis at 100 10.966
avg Fe/1000 miles 2.07
avg Pb/1000 miles 0.987
avg mileage 6077

0w40
sample size 6
avg vis at 100 11.98
avg Fe/1000 miles 1.83
avg Pb/1000 miles 0.29
avg mileage 5733

5w20
sample size 7
avg vis at 100 7.91
avg Fe/1000 miles 1.56
avg Pb/1000 miles 0.13
avg mileage 5400

0w20
sample size 7
avg vis at 100 8.58
avg Fe/1000 miles 1.257
avg Pb/1000 miles 0.62
avg mileage 10884

personally, i think "shearing out of grade" is a red herring. there was exactly one oil that actually made it out of grade, and that was a schaeffer's 5w-30, and that was only by like .2. while there are alot of comments like "that 30wt sheared down to nearly a 20wt" in many cases it started out nearly at a 20wt too. if you say it like "that 26wt sheared down to a 25wt, it doesn't seem nearly as bad.

i would also say the 10w-30 people have the lowest avg mileage of the bunch.
 
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So....in general terms, would a 5w20 oil be more shear stable than a 10w30 or 5w30 because there's only a 15 spread vs 20/25 between the cold/hot viscosity?

Drew
 
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