Do you use gas brand exclusively ?

Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by J_mo
I use shell exclusively. Chevron if a shell Is unavailable.

This tread to me is very interesting. The same guys that go bonkers over cutting open filters, and sending oil in for lab analysis - do not care what fuel they use?

Seems a little ironic to me lol

Because anyone who understand fuel distribution understands that it's a fungible commodity. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, where there are 5 major oil refineries, and all make fuel to the same industry standards. That fuel is transported via pipeline and pretty much traded. It's more like bank/ATM transactions than anything else. Shell deposits fuel into the system, and their customers withdraw fuel from fuel depots. The pipeline operators are only required to "transport" X amount of fuel and to allow their customers' customers to withdraw that amount of comparable fuel at points A, B, and C.

If one is buying fuel in Southern California, there hasn't been a Shell refinery there in years. Shell does have a large distribution facility. It's effectively just a horse trading facility where they distribute fuel made by someone else.

The thing that brands fuel is that it will use detergent additives developed or specified by the marketer.



Under the logic in this thread, all oil companies use the same base stock, and only add their add pack, right?
Oil analysis shows, that add pack is what makes the difference. Right?
I just dont understand the logic that people do not believe the add packs in gasoline make a difference, but will believe they do in other fluids.

Also, shell has a refinery in Martinez btw.

I've owned a major brand fueling location for 10 years. I wont say which, but believe me. There is a difference in the fuel you buy from AMPM, and the fuel you purchase from Chevron.
 
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Oil companies do not all use the same base stock.
Where did you hear / read that?



https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/29113/base-oil-groups

The way these group base stocks are created, effectively makes a group III a group III, correct? Can one company create a better group III than another? Process is process. Then, the add packs and additional components come into play per each manufacturer.

So what makes the oil is oil different from the gas is gas consensus.
What makes any soap or detergent different, they all begin with the same water. Right?
What makes any tire different. They are all rubber.

People will spend money on quality tires, oil, and launder detergent. But gas is gas.
 
Originally Posted by J_mo
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/29113/base-oil-groups

The way these group base stocks are created, effectively makes a group III a group III, correct? Can one company create a better group III than another? Process is process. Then, the add packs and additional components come into play per each manufacturer.

Of course they can. Do you see the "" before the numbers for the values?

Group I-III designations are ranges and aren't intended for qualifying a finished lube, they are for interchangeability of base stocks for blenders and manufacturers. But all the values that define the Groups I-III are a range.

API 1509, Appendix E

Oh and gas is not gas. Refinery output may be used in many different brands but the additives are not all identical. You seem to want to make everything identical (both gas and oil) but they are not.
 
Originally Posted by J_mo
Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by J_mo
I use shell exclusively. Chevron if a shell Is unavailable.

This tread to me is very interesting. The same guys that go bonkers over cutting open filters, and sending oil in for lab analysis - do not care what fuel they use?

Seems a little ironic to me lol

Because anyone who understand fuel distribution understands that it's a fungible commodity. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, where there are 5 major oil refineries, and all make fuel to the same industry standards. That fuel is transported via pipeline and pretty much traded. It's more like bank/ATM transactions than anything else. Shell deposits fuel into the system, and their customers withdraw fuel from fuel depots. The pipeline operators are only required to "transport" X amount of fuel and to allow their customers' customers to withdraw that amount of comparable fuel at points A, B, and C.

If one is buying fuel in Southern California, there hasn't been a Shell refinery there in years. Shell does have a large distribution facility. It's effectively just a horse trading facility where they distribute fuel made by someone else.

The thing that brands fuel is that it will use detergent additives developed or specified by the marketer.



Under the logic in this thread, all oil companies use the same base stock, and only add their add pack, right?
Oil analysis shows, that add pack is what makes the difference. Right?
I just dont understand the logic that people do not believe the add packs in gasoline make a difference, but will believe they do in other fluids.

Also, shell has a refinery in Martinez btw.

I've owned a major brand fueling location for 10 years. I wont say which, but believe me. There is a difference in the fuel you buy from AMPM, and the fuel you purchase from Chevron.

Motor oil is far different than gasoline. With gasoline, the base fuel is by far the most critical component. While I wouldn't say the detergent additive isn't important, the fuel itself functions pretty well just with the minimum required detergent additive, although more is not a bad thing. In finished motor oil, the additive pack and VI improver can be 30% or more by weight. Without the additives, it simply won't function as modern motor oil.

I'm quite familiar with the Shell Martinez refinery, although I live close enough to the Chevron Richmond refinery that I can hear their emergency sirens. I even remember when it was known as the Equilon Refinery back when Shell and Texaco had that joint operating agreement.

As far as the detergent additive goes, it's not anything where one company has any clear advantage over another. Chevron and maybe Sunoco develop and make all their additives in house, but even Shell buys it from someone else, although it's been suggested that they developed theirs for someone else to manufacture. But even that's pretty easy. Any fuel marketer can buy (or even go custom with) a first-rate detergent additive from BASF, Afton, or Lubrizol. But it's just a cleaning additive. Certainly useful, but not where Shell, Chevron, or Costco can really differentiate much other than maybe how much they use. I do find it interesting that Chevron sells detergent additives to other companies through their Oronite division.

https://www3.epa.gov/otaq/fuels1/ffars/web-detrg.htm

There are additives (like corrosion inhibitors and antioxidants) that are in the base fuel before the "branded additive" is added. Those are important, but not so important that any fuel marketer insists on using their own. And there's little to differentiate between fuels that include a high level of detergent additive such as Shell, Chevron, Exxon/Mobil, or even Costco. Costco is a rather interesting case study since they've developed a good reputation for high quality fuel even though they're not a refiner.

As far as what one can get from ampm/Arco - I frankly consider that to be fine. The brand was owned by BP then Tesoro, with a strange history of regional licensing of both ampm and Arco. Marathon owns the Arco brand while BP still owns the ampm brand. But the fuel itself is just a commodity with whatever the regional entity has specified as a detergent additive. Regardless of what detergent additive is used in different regions where the fuel marketer is different, Arco is on the Top Tier list so they're using something good enough that I'm not going to worry about it. My preference is for Costco though since it's considerably cheaper than any place else, and they're upfront about their detergent additive (Lubrizol 9888).
 
Costco for gas vehicles. A particular gas/diesel station that I don't go for gas for diesel only. Less confusion for me because I don't wanna be that guy that puts gas in a diesel truck.
 
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I have always used whoever has the cheapest, no matter what I drove, gas cars or diesel trucks.

The only time I didn't care was back when I rode motor scooters that got 60mpg (250cc), 80mpg (125cc) or 100mpg (50cc). I'd fill up at whatever gas station was close by when I needed some. It hardly makes a difference when you get that kind of mileage.
 
Originally Posted by Kibitoshin
Costco for gas vehicles. A particular gas/diesel station that I don't go for gas for diesel only. Less confusion for me because I don't wanna be that guy that puts gas in a diesel truck.


I was always worried about that but I guess made a good enough mental note not to do that. I switched from gas to diesel almost 3 years ago and it's never happened. *knock on wood*

But with my ancient old 100% mechanical IDI engine, I could just dump some motor oil in the tank to make up for the lack of lubricity and top it off with diesel and have it be ok if only one or two gallons of gasoline got pumped in. It would get worse MPG and wouldn't be great for it, but probably wouldn't hurt it that too badly.

Worst case scenario, I could switch to the other fuel tank since I have dual tanks. But it's hard plumbed to one of the tanks (bypassing a leaky tank selector valve) so I'd have to crawl under and move the supply and return hoses over to the other tank's lines, but at least I could do that and drive away on 100% diesel.

The closest thing was one time, over a year ago in... I think Kansas? I pulled up in a truck lane and saw it was all diesel. So I started pumping. And as one does, you have nothing to do but read the pumps. Much to my horror, I was pumping non-taxed red dyed diesel. OOPS! I stopped immediately, hung up the nozzle and stood there a few seconds, trying to decide what to do. I jumped in and pulled up a short way to get to #2 pump to finish fueling up. No one came rushing out and I never got anything in the mail (ie. from my license plate being on camera). It was truly an accident, and there was nothing I could do about it. It was all of 2 or 3 gallons max. Semis doing that can get caught red handed since there are tank inspections, so I've heard. Well, this was in my old F250, so I didn't stress about it too much. They don't randomly inspect fuel tanks on pickups, except maybe if they're used for commercial purposes, which mine isn't.

I'm far more careful about watching what pumps say now, especially in diesel lanes. At least in gas lanes, the diesel pump nozzle is color coded green 99% of the time. Plus, it has a separate diesel button to start from gas, so you'd have to not only put in the gas nozzle. but you'd have to hit one of the 3 gas grade buttons to activate the gas nozzle.
 
Originally Posted by Cubey
The closest thing was one time, over a year ago in... I think Kansas? I pulled up in a truck lane and saw it was all diesel. So I started pumping. And as one does, you have nothing to do but read the pumps. Much to my horror, I was pumping non-taxed red dyed diesel. OOPS! I stopped immediately, hung up the nozzle and stood there a few seconds, trying to decide what to do. I jumped in and pulled up a short way to get to #2 pump to finish fueling up. No one came rushing out and I never got anything in the mail (ie. from my license plate being on camera). It was truly an accident, and there was nothing I could do about it. It was all of 2 or 3 gallons max. Semis doing that can get caught red handed since there are tank inspections, so I've heard. Well, this was in my old F250, so I didn't stress about it too much. They don't randomly inspect fuel tanks on pickups, except maybe if they're used for commercial purposes, which mine isn't.

Not sure how that works. I know of a small railroad where the director there says they operate off of "#2 fuel oil" which is essentially just red dyed #2 diesel. They use regular #2 diesel in a pinch.

I thought that AG diesel is mostly used in stuff like construction equipment and generators. There may be that weird transition between using a licensed street vehicle off-road or on a track. Not sure what any requirement would be to purge a system of the red dyed diesel before being allowed on regular roads.
 
Originally Posted by y_p_w
Not sure how that works. I know of a small railroad where the director there says they operate off of "#2 fuel oil" which is essentially just red dyed #2 diesel. They use regular #2 diesel in a pinch.

I thought that AG diesel is mostly used in stuff like construction equipment and generators. There may be that weird transition between using a licensed street vehicle off-road or on a track. Not sure what any requirement would be to purge a system of the red dyed diesel before being allowed on regular roads.


It's not taxed for highway use, which is why it's about 30-50 cents cheaper. It's the same exact fuel, just dyed red so they can try to catch people for tax evasion. I've read that if caught, the fine can range anywhere from $100 to $10,000 depending on the state. I've read that if you do use it for highway use, in some states you can pay the highway tax later on it and not get fined, but you need a special permit for that.

Basically if you ever accidentally pump it, the best thing you can do is either get towed away to have it drained, or hurry and use it up and refill several times with green highway taxed diesel to get rid of all the red dyed fuel in case a "dip" is ever done on your tank. But again that's mostly a problem for commercial vehicles where you have to stop for inspections all the time.
 
Valero or Kwik Fill as both are 10~ minutes from my place
smile.gif
 
My vette hates Chevron gas. But it loves 76. Other cars will usually get 76, or the trucks usually Arco or Costco.
 
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I remember a study by Paragon where they evaluated detergent quantity in various brand gasoline and octane levels. Some folks here even posted screenshots from news channels reporting that study, but I found the list here.
https://www.thechicagogarage.com/threads/detergents-in-brands-octanes.52272/

Shell is noted to have the highest level of those studied. I use Shell V-Power high octane in my Maxima since premium is recommended. Also, Shell claims they put their highest detergent level in the premium. I would be curious to know if other brands vary detergent content with octane level.

There was also a nice report by AAA not too long ago. They found differences in deposits amongst brand names. I wish they had identified the brands!
https://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/Fuel-Quality-Full-Report.pdf
 
Originally Posted by NissanMaxima
I remember a study by Paragon where they evaluated detergent quantity in various brand gasoline and octane levels. Some folks here even posted screenshots from news channels reporting that study, but I found the list here.
https://www.thechicagogarage.com/threads/detergents-in-brands-octanes.52272/

Shell is noted to have the highest level of those studied. I use Shell V-Power high octane in my Maxima since premium is recommended. Also, Shell claims they put their highest detergent level in the premium. I would be curious to know if other brands vary detergent content with octane level.

There was also a nice report by AAA not too long ago. They found differences in deposits amongst brand names. I wish they had identified the brands!
https://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/Fuel-Quality-Full-Report.pdf



Even back in the late 1980s, Shell was regarded to be the best by some people. Around 1988 when my mom finally got her first car, a used 1980 Ford LTD, she would only put in Shell despite it being the most expensive in that town. One time when my older bro borrowed the car, he tried to be a [censored] and and went a cheaper station that was rumored (probably unfounded) to have water in the gas because he had to replace the gas he used. He figured she'd never know the difference. Well he ended up nearing ripping the LTD's driver door off because he left the door open and accidentally put it in reverse instead of drive, catching it on a pole. Then he hit the gas instead of the brake in a panic when it hit. He somehow managed to get the door closed and drove it home. No idea what he was trying to do with he door wide open but yeah. BUSTED! He had to just fess up to where it happened, rather than try to lie about it and risk getting caught, on top of breaking the "Shell only" rule and tearing up the car. It had to get a mismatched junk yard door. I think it was shortly after that he got his own car, a 72 Dodge Dart. She wasn't going to have him tearing up her car any more.
 
Originally Posted by Cubey
Originally Posted by NissanMaxima
I remember a study by Paragon where they evaluated detergent quantity in various brand gasoline and octane levels. Some folks here even posted screenshots from news channels reporting that study, but I found the list here.
https://www.thechicagogarage.com/threads/detergents-in-brands-octanes.52272/

Shell is noted to have the highest level of those studied. I use Shell V-Power high octane in my Maxima since premium is recommended. Also, Shell claims they put their highest detergent level in the premium. I would be curious to know if other brands vary detergent content with octane level.

There was also a nice report by AAA not too long ago. They found differences in deposits amongst brand names. I wish they had identified the brands!
https://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/Fuel-Quality-Full-Report.pdf



Even back in the late 1980s, Shell was regarded to be the best by some people. Around 1988 when my mom finally got her first car, a used 1980 Ford LTD, she would only put in Shell despite it being the most expensive in that town. One time when my older bro borrowed the car, he tried to be a [censored] and and went a cheaper station that was rumored (probably unfounded) to have water in the gas because he had to replace the gas he used. He figured she'd never know the difference. Well he ended up nearing ripping the LTD's driver door off because he left the door open and accidentally put it in reverse instead of drive, catching it on a pole. Then he hit the gas instead of the brake in a panic when it hit. He somehow managed to get the door closed and drove it home. No idea what he was trying to do with he door wide open but yeah. BUSTED! He had to just fess up to where it happened, rather than try to lie about it and risk getting caught, on top of breaking the "Shell only" rule and tearing up the car. It had to get a mismatched junk yard door. I think it was shortly after that he got his own car, a 72 Dodge Dart. She wasn't going to have him tearing up her car any more.


Funny story Cubey. Thanks for sharing! Guess the few cents he saved by breaking the "Shell only" rule cost him more in the end by being grounded I'm sure. I'm sure that makes for some fine reminiscing come family events! Those LTD's were built like a tank with real bumpers. We had the cheaper Custom 500 back in the day!
 
An independent that sells 87 octane 100% gas, so far, after a few years no issues. MPG definitely better with the 100% but a break even cost wise.
 
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