Do we know if MoS2 additive works in modern oil?

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Clevy

I've posted my mpg increases on all my vehicles many times,as well as my monthly fuel consumption in the 12 air compressors,5 generators,3 full size work vans and 2 cube vans.
I'm not in any mood to repeat myself as I've posted on this subject countless times.


Sorry to offend you, I simply didn't see you posts before. Even if it feels like I have no life and spend too much time on BITOG, I still miss a lot of postings.

Sounds like you have good experience with this and no engines lost or filters plugged. This is the only thing that makes me uneasy about the whole thing, as I do long, 12 months OCIs these days. The cost is indeed minimal and I'm not actually after MPG, as my cars are as fuel efficient as possible. My goal is to eliminate the silly knock that is getting worse with time.

I guess I can take a plunge and check filter midway through. It's a canister design and I'm not sure if there is a bypass.

 

[KCJeep]

I ran MoS2 for about 12k consecutive miles in my Jeep. Mileage did hit an all time high for me in the vehicle during that period (over 19 mpg average) but I also made other changes during that span that could have had a positive impact as well, such as changing the original fuel filter.

My engine was notably quieter after about 500 miles.

I cut open several "MoS2" filters during that span, and have cut many others before and since. In a nutshell I would have to tell you which ones had MoS2 in the sump, they all look the same.

I quit using it simply because I found I had to shorten my OCI's and making special trips to Napa to get it was also annoying. I could have simply gone to a half can an OCI instead though, I may return to that once I get another UOA back and get a chance to see the results.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep

I quit using it simply because I found I had to shorten my OCI's


Please tell me more about the shortened OCI!

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: KCJeep

I quit using it simply because I found I had to shorten my OCI's


Please tell me more about the shortened OCI!


I was doing 5k OCI's, happened to do a UOA at 3,500 as a comparitive test with another Jeeper and found (much to my surprise) my TBN was shot at only 3.5k . Turns out my use was much more "severe" than I thought. At 3.5k OCI's I didn't figure MoS2 was cost effective, although I could have gone to half can applications I didn't. May use it again though, I liked it.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Thanks!

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
OK, I was doing some more searches and there is ARCO who had oil filter plugged in Honda Fit and this guy lost an engine due to a filter plugged by LM: http://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/7369-oil-additive-filter-blocked/
If I use the additive and have a problem, will LM buy me a new engine?

I told ARCO at the time that this was nonsense, and I'll tell you, if ANYTHING plugs the oil filter media the bypass valve will open and the engine will NOT loose it's oiling capability.
I've been using MoS2 since the 80's in all of my vehicles and I can tell you from experience that it does what they say it does and it will not harm your engine. It is the only additive that I have ever or will ever put in my oil.

 

[friendly_jacek]

The part I still don't comprehend is the fact that it was known at least since 60's that particulate MoS2 reduces friction and increases fuel efficiency if used in high enough doses (ie 1%). There are lots of moly greases used, yet, no major oil company produced engine oil containing solid MoS2.

On the other hand, they went the soluble moly path that we have now.

It must be some reason why and I don't know the reason.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek

On the other hand, they went the soluble moly path that we have now.

It must be some reason why and I don't know the reason.


Could the answer be that not everyone gets lucky with particulate MoS2?

Quote:
Years ago I used a product called Moly-slip which I think was molybdenum disulfide. After a few years the car was getting kinda tired and the oil pressure was dropping. I stopped using it since the car wasn't going to last much longer anyway. The oil pressure came back up and it ran better than ever. I later wondered if I was just pouring in a can of sludge.


from: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/1873544/

Quote:
I added a full can of Lubro-Moly MOS2 Anti-Friction Engine Treatment to my '01 GM LS1 engine, and within a few minutes of operation it developed a ticking noise. Stethoscope found it loudest at the valve covers, uniformly present at all points from front to rear.

Background:
The engine had a top-end rebuild a few months ago, new GM LS6 camshaft, Morel link-bar hydraulic roller lifters, PAC 1218 beehive valve springs, properly-sized pushrods yielding 0.063" lifter preload.

It had been quiet for over 3K miles since the refresh, including a track day comprised of five 30-minute road course sessions. Was running Mobil-1 10W-40 High Mileage synthetic oil for the track day, change to M-1 0W-40 afterward and no engine noise had been observed.

I got enfatuated w/ MOS2 after reading about it here, engine sump is 6qt so I added the 300mL can minus 1 shot glass which went into the mower engine.

After hearing the ticking, I dumped the oil and flushed the pan with ~1/2 qt of leftover oil from the shelf. Refilled with Castrol GTX 5w30 dino oil, new Wix filter, noise still there at the time, but was gone after my 46 mile work commute. Just over 150 miles since then, noise remains gone.

Fair conclusion that the Lubro-Moly, possibly when combined with Mobil-1 0W-40, was the cause of the lifter noise?


from: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/my-engine-hates-lubro-moly.157265/

Do I feel lucky? Not sure yet.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek

On the other hand, they went the soluble moly path that we have now.

It must be some reason why and I don't know the reason.


Could the answer be that not everyone gets lucky with particulate MoS2?

Quote:
Years ago I used a product called Moly-slip which I think was molybdenum disulfide. After a few years the car was getting kinda tired and the oil pressure was dropping. I stopped using it since the car wasn't going to last much longer anyway. The oil pressure came back up and it ran better than ever. I later wondered if I was just pouring in a can of sludge.


from: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/1873544/

Quote:
I added a full can of Lubro-Moly MOS2 Anti-Friction Engine Treatment to my '01 GM LS1 engine, and within a few minutes of operation it developed a ticking noise. Stethoscope found it loudest at the valve covers, uniformly present at all points from front to rear.

Background:
The engine had a top-end rebuild a few months ago, new GM LS6 camshaft, Morel link-bar hydraulic roller lifters, PAC 1218 beehive valve springs, properly-sized pushrods yielding 0.063" lifter preload.

It had been quiet for over 3K miles since the refresh, including a track day comprised of five 30-minute road course sessions. Was running Mobil-1 10W-40 High Mileage synthetic oil for the track day, change to M-1 0W-40 afterward and no engine noise had been observed.

I got enfatuated w/ MOS2 after reading about it here, engine sump is 6qt so I added the 300mL can minus 1 shot glass which went into the mower engine.

After hearing the ticking, I dumped the oil and flushed the pan with ~1/2 qt of leftover oil from the shelf. Refilled with Castrol GTX 5w30 dino oil, new Wix filter, noise still there at the time, but was gone after my 46 mile work commute. Just over 150 miles since then, noise remains gone.

Fair conclusion that the Lubro-Moly, possibly when combined with Mobil-1 0W-40, was the cause of the lifter noise?


from: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/my-engine-hates-lubro-moly.157265/

Do I feel lucky? Not sure yet.


That quote about the 01 Chevy in the resting considering I've got a 99 with the same engine with a comp 270 cam. I used mos2 in that truck for over 160000kms without any of the issues he described.
I must be really lucky considering I've got well over 1/2 million miles on 4 vehicles using it in the sumps,and in 12000$ worth of air compressors,7000$ worth of generators and a 90000$ 52' boom forklift.
I was looking at the spreadsheets of our monthly fuel expenditures before moly and after moly and I save over 1000$ a month in fuel in the company equipment.
I'm changing the oil in my charger tomorrow to the M1 I bought for my mos2 testing.
I amassed 3000 miles since buying this car last week so I will be tracking fuel and mileage with M1 without moly for 3000 miles,then with moly.
My high mile 302 in the 88 quit letting oil by the rings after using moly too. Interestingly enough.
So I guess I'm lucky. I should buy a lottery ticket.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Do we know if MoS2 additive works in modern oil?


We don't.

Modern oils usually have a soluble moly of molybdenum Dithiocarbamate that works fine as a friction reducer.

 

[friendly_jacek]

I think I did find out why MoS2 was never implemented on a large scale in engine oils: corrosive tendency to ferrous metals when exposed to moisture.

Here is why US Army discontinued MoS2 from it's use in 1960's due to increased corrosion:
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/291052.pdf

Here is how MoS2 can contribute to firearm corrosion:
http://www.sprinco.com/articles.html

And this is the example of scientific literature on this issue:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF00727803#page-1

Since that was a common knowledge in 1960's, it has been kind of forgotten and takes some time to rediscover it.

If one drives mostly hwy with short OCI, it really should not be a problem. Since my car in question is seeing lots of short trips and I tend to do longer OCI, I'm not going to try it. It was an interesting pursuit of knowledge and I learned a lot of new things.

Thanks for everyone who played along!

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule

Modern oils usually have a soluble moly of molybdenum Dithiocarbamate that works fine as a friction reducer.


I know that and I mentioned that fact in my initial post. See point #4.
The reason I asked the question in the first place, you would think there should be no benefits from these MoS2 additives anymore, yet some (but not all, mind you) people report very positive results. Puzzling.

 

[V8man]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
Do we know if MoS2 additive works in modern oil?


We don't.

Modern oils usually have a soluble moly of molybdenum Dithiocarbamate that works fine as a friction reducer.



I have used MoS2 with Mobil 1 and it worked fine, meaning that the engine ran smoother and seemed a tad more responsive.

 

[JANDSZIRKLE]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: MolaKule

Modern oils usually have a soluble moly of molybdenum Dithiocarbamate that works fine as a friction reducer.


I know that and I mentioned that fact in my initial post. See point #4.
The reason I asked the question in the first place, you would think there should be no benefits from these MoS2 additives anymore, yet some (but not all, mind you) people report very positive results. Puzzling.


I am curious, if we dont know the effect moly has with modern oil.... would its presence in an oil such as mobil super 5k (just using it as an example) which has little too no moly make a more noticeable difference in performance or mileage even though mobil super 5k is using titanium or some other anti wear/friction modifier?
Hope i said that right....

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
I think I did find out why MoS2 was never implemented on a large scale in engine oils: corrosive tendency to ferrous metals when exposed to moisture.
Here is why US Army discontinued MoS2 from it's use in 1960's due to increased corrosion:
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/291052.pdf
Here is how MoS2 can contribute to firearm corrosion:
http://www.sprinco.com/articles.html
And this is the example of scientific literature on this issue:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF00727803#page-1
Since that was a common knowledge in 1960's, it has been kind of forgotten and takes some time to rediscover it.

MoS2 has been on the market since the 1970s. If it was causing this kind of problem (which I would consider very serious) there would be hard evidence of it by now. But, in actual use over a VERY long time period, this has NOT been the case. I have yet to find ANYBODY who can actually PROVE that it has in any way damaged an engine. Anything negative that I have ever heard has been one of those "a friend of a co-worker of my wife's uncle said this..." kind of deals. NO concrete proof and NO hard evidence shown by ANYBODY, EVER!
Also, fact is that pretty much ALL of the chemicals used in motor oil can have serious negative consequences when used in a high enough concentration. Take ZDDP for example, its properties and benefits are well known and it is a highly desirable motor oil additive up to a certain concentration, above which it also becomes corrosive.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: wag123

MoS2 has been on the market since the 1970s. If it was causing this kind of problem (which I would consider very serious) there would be hard evidence of it by now. But, in actual use over a VERY long time period, this has NOT been the case. I have yet to find ANYBODY who can actually PROVE that it has in any way damaged an engine. Anything negative that I have ever heard has been one of those "a friend of a co-worker of my wife's uncle said this..." kind of deals. NO concrete proof and NO hard evidence shown by ANYBODY, EVER!
Also, fact is that pretty much ALL of the chemicals used in motor oil can have serious negative consequences when used in a high enough concentration. Take ZDDP for example, its properties and benefits are well known and it is a highly desirable motor oil additive up to a certain concentration, above which it also becomes corrosive.


You clearly didn't read what I posted. MoS2 has been in use for a long time and not since 70's. The studies I quoted were mostly from 60's.

I also posted links to 3 people who had problems with MoS2 in engine oil.

 

[demarpaint]

Interesting that it is corrosive to firearms. I moly coat bullets and have been doing so for years. I get longer barrel life and easier cleaning, corrosion hasn't been an issue in stainless steel or blued barrels and I live on Long Island. I wonder if it has anything with how/what they used to clean their barrels, and what oil they use after the cleaning? Interesting.

 

[kschachn]

Still though, you have to accuse a huge conspiracy to believe this increases mileage as you say, without any harmful side effects. I mean what, ExxonMobil knows it will increase mileage by this huge amount and yet refuses to use it as an additive?

And not only ExxonMobil, but Shell and Castrol and Ashland and Citgo and Amsoil and ConocoPhillips and, and, and...

Plus you have to believe the competitive market forces between these companies is not greater than the benefit to suppress.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Still though, you have to accuse a huge conspiracy theory to believe this increases mileage as you say, without any harmful side effects. I mean what, ExxonMobil knows it will increase mileage by this huge amount and yet refuses to use it as an additive?

And not only ExxonMobil, but Shell and Castrol and Ashland and Citgo and Amsoil and ConocoPhillips and, and, and...

Plus you have to believe the competitive market forces between these companies is not greater than the benefit to suppress.


It does use the soluble type in its M1 line of oils.
Perhaps its expensive and would cut into the profit line,or drive up the cost to consumer.
Liqui-moly does use it in their 10w-40 motor oil,so its not unheard of. There are likely many reasons why things are the way they are.
All I can comment on is my own personal experiences with the product. I'm not a paid poster or endorser. I'm just a guy who wants my engines to last an eternity and get better than advertised mileage. I'm not selling the stuff but I sure am buying it.
I find it interesting that all my vehicles(mustangs excepted,I beat on them so tracking mileage is a waste of time)that I use mos2 in get better than the EPA advertised mileage when new,and none of my vehicles have less than 240000kms on them.
The charger just turned 60000 miles. I haven't added mos2 yet because I'm developing a 5000km/3000 mile baseline first.
I'm using m1 5w-20 likely changed today or at some point before Monday. Then I'll begin tracking fuel consumption.
Thus far I'm getting 23mpg highway with cruise set at 70mph. I reset the mpg gauge every day to establish its consistency and I'm using the trip meter for per tank mileage.

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek

You clearly didn't read what I posted. MoS2 has been in use for a long time and not since 70's. The studies I quoted were mostly from 60's.
I also posted links to 3 people who had problems with MoS2 in engine oil.

Yes, I did read what you presented and I stand by what I said. Nothing that you presented (except from ARCO) was SPECIFIC to the Lubro-Moly/Liqui-Moly MoS2 motor oil additive product causing any engine problems and I didn't see any pictures providing proof positive of ANY engine failure from ANYBODY. The only negative things that I saw referred to problems with MolyKote which is an entirely different product. Nobody has ever shown that the Lubro-Moly/Liqui-Moly MoS2 motor oil additive product (SPECIFICALLY) has caused internal engine corrosion or that it's moly particles aggregated.
Also, I say once again, if ANYTHING plugs the oil filter media, the bypass valve WILL open, the engine will continue to be lubricated, and an engine failure will NOT occur due to this.
If you don't (or anyone else doesn't) feel comfortable using it, THEN DON'T USE IT, but you won't convince me (and MANY other loyal users) not to use it. I have 25 years and many hundreds of thousands of miles of real world experience with the product and I am absolutely convinced that it works as advertised.