“Do not use oils of a higher quality than specified”

[CanadianBacon]

“Do not use oils of a diesel specification of “CD” or oils of a higher quality than specified.”

What a weird thing to say. What does “a higher quality” even mean?

This is from the owners manual of a 2016 Yamaha Zuma/BWS 125cc scooter. It goes on to warn against using energy conserving oils as well. (See pictures)

Now this would make sense to me if it was a wet clutch motorcycle. Friction modifiers are an obvious issue in that environment which is why other manufacturers list similar warnings for their wet clutch bikes. But the BWS has a dry clutch CVT, so what gives? What the diesel API hate?

Now I’ve gone on to email Yamaha in the hopes they can shed some light, but I don’t expect much of a reply beyond directing me to their proprietary mineral based house lubricant.

I’m looking to find an alternative for two reasons:

1. The recommended weight of 10W40 is *just* inadequate. Yamaha recommends it for temperatures ranging from -10 to +40 centigrade. Where I live a summer morning can be under 10 degrees, but by late afternoon that 40 mark is real close. And I run long, hard, and at WOT.
2. 20W50 is inadequate for cold starts. So I’m looking for a synthetic 10W40 that will provide an extra level of stability against those extra hot high speed runs. I was thinking the ester based Redline 10W40, but it meets API CF, which if I understand supersedes CD.

Thoughts? Is this a typo from Yamaha, a lazy copy from the manual of a wet-clutch bike?

 

[Panos]

The is a motorcycle sub forum in here. But the question is (for me)... long, hard, and at WOT, why should one give a little scooter that much of a stress to the machine and himself when one could just ride a bigger engine and upgraded machine at a more relaxed pace, it would probably cost less in every aspect.

 

[Graham Piccinini]

My 2007 Yamaha YJ125 (Vino 125cc) has exactly the same language in the owner's manual. It makes zero sense, and seems like a typo that never got fixed. Either way - my little nugget gets Mobil1 15W-50 and runs happy, while making me happy.

 

[blufeb95]

My guess is this manual has not been rewritten in a long time, and they were still going all in on the "synthetics bad" thing, I don't know why any owners manual would even mention "Energy Conserving II" if it was written in the past 25 years, that is a far obsolete category that pertains to API SH/ILSAC GF-1, I think by modern standards you couldn't even meet it because energy conserving 10W-40 was likely of the old variety that was allowed to have an HTHS viscosity between 2.9-3.5 before the SAE J300 update required all Xw40 to have a 3.5 HTHS minimum (3.7 for 15W40)

 

[Graham Piccinini]

The is a motorcycle sub forum in here. But the question is (for me)... long, hard, and at WOT, why should one give a little scooter that much of a stress to the machine and himself when one could just ride a bigger engine and upgraded machine at a more relaxed pace, it would probably cost less in every aspect.

Most scooters are CVT, so regardless of engine size - they're all WOT. I had a 49CC, 125CC, 150CC, and couple 250CC scoots. Might as well save some gas/insurance/purchase-price money with the smaller ones. They don't seem to care anyways and run forever, at least when it comes to Honda and Yamaha.

 

[CanadianBacon]

The is a motorcycle sub forum in here. But the question is (for me)... long, hard, and at WOT, why should one give a little scooter that much of a stress to the machine and himself when one could just ride a bigger engine and upgraded machine at a more relaxed pace, it would probably cost less in every aspect.

My bad, I’m new.

The smaller bike is better on fuel, cheaper on insurance, cheaper to buy, easy to store. Most scooters are designed to run at a fairly high engine speed and can do so without issue.

 

[Graham Piccinini]

Since there is no wet clutch to worry about in my YJ125 - I am actually going to run Castrol 10W-60 in the hottest part of the humid Carolina summer.

 

[CanadianBacon]

My guess is this manual has not been rewritten in a long time, and they were still going all in on the "synthetics bad" thing, I don't know why any owners manual would even mention "Energy Conserving II" if it was written in the past 25 years, that is a far obsolete category that pertains to API SH/ILSAC GF-1, I think by modern standards you couldn't even meet it because energy conserving 10W-40 was likely of the old variety that was allowed to have an HTHS viscosity between 2.9-3.5 before the SAE J300 update required all Xw40 to have a 3.5 HTHS minimum (3.7 for 15W40)

I wish I knew what half of that meant, but I take it I’m ok to run what I want.

 

[CanadianBacon]

Since there is no wet clutch to worry about in my YJ125 - I am actually going to run Castrol 10W-60 in the hottest part of the humid Carolina summer.

Now that’s heavy. I’d be a bit worried about that heavy an oil. Possible inadequate bearing cooling/lube?

 

[Graham Piccinini]

Now that’s heavy. I’d be a bit worried about that heavy an oil. Possible inadequate bearing cooling/lube?

I'm more worried about having enough Minimum Oil Film Thickness left to keep the bearings separated. Most air-cooled Chinese scoots love to seize up in the summer, so this will be my precautionary measure.

 

[userfriendly]

CD 1955 obsolete spec
CE 1983 obsolete
CF-4 1991 obsolete
CG-4 1994 obsolete

CH-4 1999 oldest Diesel spec in use. CK-4 meets all older API categories.
Petro-Canada Duron comes in 10w40 CK-4/SN synthetic.

 

[CanadianBacon]

I

I'm more worried about having enough Minimum Oil Film Thickness left to keep the bearings separated. Most air-cooled Chinese scoots love to seize up in the summer, so this will be my precautionary measure.

redline claims their 10w40 retains a film similar to a 50 when hot. Not sure how accurate it is. But that’s why I’m hoping to use I for my application.

 

[userfriendly]

I

redline claims their 10w40 retains a film similar to a 50 when hot. Not sure how accurate it is. But that’s why I’m hoping to use I for my application.

Good one! Canadian Tire has it on sale this week plus a $25 mail in coupon.

edit you might find information on Red Line www.phillips66lubricants.com or www.phillips66.com

 

[eljefino]

You'd do well to get an oil temp reading. Either infer it with infared thermometer off your block, or get one of those little thermometers that go in your dipstick/ fill plug hole. I ran 10w40 in my Virago, and on a "hot as blazes" day only got up to 215'F, which is, hey, I'm water-cooled territory.

This strikes me as one of those "It's too hot for humans, so it's also too hot for machines" threads.

 

[ka9mnx]

By the wording, they are suggesting you use a high SAP oil.

 

[Astro14]

More of a motorcycle question, so, moved to that sub forum.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

My guess is that the manual was written for a market where fuels were really high in sulphur and it was just translated into English verbatim.

 

[Ride_Red]

Try Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W-40. Full synthetic and gets great reviews here on BITOG.

 

[CanadianBacon]

You'd do well to get an oil temp reading. Either infer it with infared thermometer off your block, or get one of those little thermometers that go in your dipstick/ fill plug hole. I ran 10w40 in my Virago, and on a "hot as blazes" day only got up to 215'F, which is, hey, I'm water-cooled territory.

This strikes me as one of those "It's too hot for humans, so it's also too hot for machines" threads.

Interesting take. Maybe these little engines do better than expected in the heat.

 

[ZeeOSix]

1. The recommended weight of 10W40 is *just* inadequate. Yamaha recommends it for temperatures ranging from -10 to +40 centigrade. Where I live a summer morning can be under 10 degrees, but by late afternoon that 40 mark is real close. And I run long, hard, and at WOT.
2. 20W50 is inadequate for cold starts. So I’m looking for a synthetic 10W40 that will provide an extra level of stability against those extra hot high speed runs. I was thinking the ester based Redline 10W40, but it meets API CF, which if I understand supersedes CD.

You could use a 15W-50 JASO rated motorcycle oil. That way, you get the 50 on the hot side and 15W on the cold side which would be good down to ~0C (32F).