Do hybrids last as long as naturally aspirated engine and do they make sense?

[Rmay635703]

This is not a fine. It is the equivalent of a gas tax, because hybrids and EVs use less/no gas and therefore pay less/no gas taxes. The additional registration fee is $200 here in Texas, FWIW.

Also FWIW, I drive my Navigator about 7500 miles a year and at 14 mpg that is $99 in state gas taxes paid. If I drove 15,000 miles a year it would be about equal to the EV fee in gas taxes.

I drive a plain gas hybrid, it gets nearly identical fuel economy to my old stick and the registration tax exceeds how much I pay annually for gas.

I was there when the guy hocking the fine for my state was pushing his Prius tax saying maybe if we tax hybrid drivers enough they will push on the gas pedal.

So yes, it’s a fine that has no basis in reality besides the guy that passed it hated hybrids as a campaign promise. I see he was re-elected on his 28th year spending virtually his entire working life as a career politician. His entire family and extended family have .gov careers thanks to his hackery, nepotism is alive and well.

 

[Brons2]

I drive a plain gas hybrid, it gets nearly identical fuel economy to my old stick and the registration tax exceeds how much I pay annually for gas.

I was there when the guy hocking the fine for my state was pushing his Prius tax saying maybe if we tax hybrid drivers enough they will push on the gas pedal.

So yes, it’s a fine that has no basis in reality besides the guy that passed it hated hybrids as a campaign promise. I see he was re-elected on his 28th year spending virtually his entire working life as a career politician. His entire family and extended family have .gov careers thanks to his hackery, nepotism is alive and well.

Yours must be a lot higher than ours. How much is it per year? Plus our registration tax is only for pure BEV, hybrids are not impacted. I had to look it up.

In my case though I'd probably still save money over a 14mpg vehicle with a hybrid if I had to pay the $200 fee, independent of the cost of the car. At $3 per gallon and 15 mpg it's $1500 a year in gas to drive 7500 miles. But it's paid off, so the cost of acquisition of anything else is a factor. There's almost no scenario in which buying another car is going to be more cost effective, at todays prices. An older used Leaf might be one exception, but that's about it, it would have to cost $3882 or less to be more cost effective than putting gas in the Navigator at 11c/kwh and $3 per gallon respectively.

Now if I absolutely need a new car, that's another discussion entirely. I may be getting towards that point with the Navi, transmission is intermittently going into limp mode. Stopping and turning it off and back on usually resolves it, but I'm sure that's not going to get any better. And in keeping with the topic of this thread, there's some plastic bits that need to get replaced, like the timing chain tensioners and guides. And the power door lock actuator on the passneger side. And the handle trim on the driver's side. And so on and so on.

 

[ecotourist]

Still amazes me that with all the retired rich professionals hanging out here, that they can't afford a new/newer car after 8-12 years, just befuddles me.

How do you think we got rich? One of the ways is we buy a good vehicle and mile it out. The depreciation on new vehicles is a killer.

Yes we look poor - and we don't care.

 

[Hermann]

How do you think we got rich? One of the ways is we buy a good vehicle and mile it out. The depreciation on new vehicles is a killer.

Yes we look poor - and we don't care.

Can't take it with ya

 

[ecotourist]

Can't take it with ya

Agreed but there is no need to take it anywhere. This would give me a lot of satisfaction:

Spend a lot as we get older to stay in our own home right to the end. (gardener, cleaner, general support) Could be very expensive.

Leave a lot of the rest to the kids and grandkids. How about having a good start in life?

Maybe fund a scholarship at my alma mater.

Large gift to the local hospital.

Help out my SIL who is practically "dirt poor". Worked hard but her husband didn't work much. Didn't understand you have to invest to accumulate a worthwhile retirement fund.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

The annual fuel cost difference for me commuting in my pair off Tacoma vs the hybrid is just 1700 a year. But I needed another vehicle anyway so my wife can drive the Tacoma for domestics during the week and we swap on the weekend f I go fishing or need to do,some work.. But if you aren’t driving 20 k plus a year you need d

 

[ekpolk]

The question is "are hybrids the best of both worlds or the worst of both worlds?" You get the maintenance costs of an ICE and the battery worries of an EV.

But then again Toyota seems to know what they're doing.

We have a Tesla. We also have an old Honda Accord that gets decent fuel economy and which I mostly maintain myself. I think that combination really is the best of both worlds.

Flame suit is on.

Keep it zipped up!. Not really. With Toyota hybrids, the ICE has no alternator, no starter motor, most have no belts, and the trans has only a few moving parts. Battery? After all the Chicken Littles faded away, my 2004 Prius finally needed a new traction battery at just over 180,000 miles. So I bought a good refurb, and including the install, it cost around $1700. Not bad at all, and the car was going strong when totaled just short of 250k miles. Very sad — it still burned no oil between changes!

 

[ekpolk]

Hybrids are actually pretty hard on engines due to a lot of stop-start and running at non-optimal operating temperature...




However, as others pointed out earlier, there is more to a car than just the engine. Often times it's other parts/components that wear out before an engine does.

Of course, it’s only one data point, but my first hybrid, a 2004 Prius, was running strong, again, consuming no oil, at 250k miles. I’d probably have driven it at least another 100k at least, except I totaled it back in 2018. Still grieving THAT loss…

Hard on engines? I dunno, if so, they must be incredibly durable to stand up to all the punishment for that long!

 

[The Critic]

Of course, it’s only one data point, but my first hybrid, a 2004 Prius, was running strong, again, consuming no oil, at 250k miles. I’d probably have driven it at least another 100k at least, except I totaled it back in 2018. Still grieving THAT loss…

Hard on engines? I dunno, if so, they must be incredibly durable to stand up to all the punishment for that long!

Different situation. I think the narrative is targeted towards the current crop of PHEV units that carry a very different set of oil-related challenges than a port-injected ICE in your 2004 Prius.

Plus, judging by your signature, you're probably aware that newer Toyota hybrids have a different ICE usage profile than the older ones. The ICE simply doesn't run as much as the older ones did; add GDI to the mix and you will have more fuel dilution issues.

 

[ekpolk]

Different situation. I think the narrative is targeted towards the current crop of PHEV units that carry a very different set of oil-related challenges than a port-injected ICE in your 2004 Prius.

Plus, judging by your signature, you're probably aware that newer Toyota hybrids have a different ICE usage profile than the older ones. The ICE simply doesn't run as much as the older ones did; add GDI to the mix and you will have more fuel dilution issues.

Yes and no. Yes, the usage pattern is different, but not so much as you might think. I’m on my fourth of these cars. In sequence, 04 Prius, 09 Camry hybrid, 18 Prius, and now a 2025 Camry. Tentative conclusion a month into the new Camry: less ICE running in town, and actually more on the highway.

The real “pickable nit” is with the GDI assertion. These cars really aren’t GDI, they are what Toyota calls D4S. They have TWO sets of fuel injectors. One goes into the ports, old school style; and the other are direct injectors. The ECU makes an on the fly assessment of which set is most efficient at a given moment (or which combo of the two) and adjusts accordingly. This is claimed (I’ll have to survey the UOAs myself to see if I can glean any data here) to reduce dilution. Also, the cars are designed to, and really do, get to op temps very, VERY quickly. I’ll put a pic below of my ScanGauge-III that I use to monitor temps. Coolant temp will hit 180-190 in town within two miles. Oil temp will stabilize around 150 in town, a tad slower than the coolant; and will rise to around 200+/-10 or so on the highway, while coolant re remains about the same.

And what about the 29.5 mpg? Yes, unusually low - might have something to do with the couple of full-throttle accelerations I tried (it’s actually a very fun car to drive, at least to my taste) on this four mile trip. Remember, hybrids are smart designs, but they are NOT able to violate the laws of physics. You get into the throttle hard, and yeah, you’ll burn some gas!

 

[ekpolk]

A salient clue to address the OP’s thread-starting question: if you go buy a 2025 Camry, you WILL by buying a hybrid. That’s right, every single Camry built, whether LE, SE, XLE OR XSE, they are 100% all hybrids. We’ve come a long way from 15 years ago when a hybrid Camry was a rare find on a dealership lot!

If Toyota is confident enough in the concept and technology, well, that’s a pretty compelling answer to the question.

 

[The Critic]

The real “pickable nit” is with the GDI assertion. These cars really aren’t GDI, they are what Toyota calls D4S. They have TWO sets of fuel injectors. One goes into the ports, old school style; and the other are direct injectors. The ECU makes an on the fly assessment of which set is most efficient at a given moment (or which combo of the two) and adjusts accordingly.

https://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/toyota-d-4s-port-fuel-or-direct-fuel-injection-why-not-both/

It is generally a blended approach under low to medium loads.

My MIL’s RX350h has about 1200 miles on its current fill. Her driving mainly consists of in-town trips. Oil level has already risen a bit on the dipstick and I can smell the fuel. If I sample the oil I expect to find something like this:

E

Thread 'M1 AFE 0W16, 1657 mi, 2021 Toyota Sienna A25A-FXS Follow Up'

Jun 1, 2022

Follow up to my first post.

This oil was drawn from the dipstick and was in service for 2 months. Based on the first report I made a conscious effort to take more highway trips using the ICE trying to bring it up to and sustain the engine at an ideal operating temperature. My driving style overall with this van is still gentle as it is our family vehicle. Oil change done 1657 mi ago was with a Toyota oil filter (part 90915-YZZN1). 7947 mi on the unit when this was drawn, no mechanical work done besides regular maintenance. Immediately before drawing this oil I drove 91 mi on mostly...

• e30m20
• Replies: 4
• Forum: Used Oil Analysis - Gasoline

• 

 

[The Critic]

A salient clue to address the OP’s thread-starting question: if you go buy a 2025 Camry, you WILL by buying a hybrid. That’s right, every single Camry built, whether LE, SE, XLE OR XSE, they are 100% all hybrids. We’ve come a long way from 15 years ago when a hybrid Camry was a rare find on a dealership lot!

If Toyota is confident enough in the concept and technology, well, that’s a pretty compelling answer to the question.

Appreciate the positivity, but in reality - Hybrids are the quickest way for Toyota to boost their CAFE. Unlike their competitors, they have the scalable infrastructure and technology to produce large quantities.

 

[ATex7239]

Yes and no. Yes, the usage pattern is different, but not so much as you might think. I’m on my fourth of these cars. In sequence, 04 Prius, 09 Camry hybrid, 18 Prius, and now a 2025 Camry. Tentative conclusion a month into the new Camry: less ICE running in town, and actually more on the highway.

The real “pickable nit” is with the GDI assertion. These cars really aren’t GDI, they are what Toyota calls D4S. They have TWO sets of fuel injectors. One goes into the ports, old school style; and the other are direct injectors. The ECU makes an on the fly assessment of which set is most efficient at a given moment (or which combo of the two) and adjusts accordingly. This is claimed (I’ll have to survey the UOAs myself to see if I can glean any data here) to reduce dilution. Also, the cars are designed to, and really do, get to op temps very, VERY quickly. I’ll put a pic below of my ScanGauge-III that I use to monitor temps. Coolant temp will hit 180-190 in town within two miles. Oil temp will stabilize around 150 in town, a tad slower than the coolant; and will rise to around 200+/-10 or so on the highway, while coolant re remains about the same. View attachment 249038

And what about the 29.5 mpg? Yes, unusually low - might have something to do with the couple of full-throttle accelerations I tried (it’s actually a very fun car to drive, at least to my taste) on this four mile trip. Remember, hybrids are smart designs, but they are NOT able to violate the laws of physics. You get into the throttle hard, and yeah, you’ll burn some gas!

Our ‘21 Toyota Sienna Hybrid (A25A) diluted. It’s gone now so no further testing will be done. DI combined with low tension rings can cause fuel dilution issues. Which is hard on oil. Oil temp coming up quickly won’t completely solve that. This isn’t your 20 year old Gen 2 Prius situation.

A

Thread '‘21 Toyota Sienna Hybrid / A25A-FXS / 80,700 miles / Pennzoil Platinum 0w20 / 5,600 miles'

Apr 5, 2024

Winter run of 5,600 miles from Dec ‘23 to Mar ‘24. OA lists oil as PP 0W16 on report but it is actually PP 0W20. Previous data from Dec ‘22 to Mar ‘23 is with PP 0W16 for 5,000 miles. Viscosity stayed around 7.0 cst @100c this time which is about the range I was hoping for going up. The Toyota seems to dilute in colder weather, but does fine during the warmer months. Likely to stick with PP 0W20 during the winters to mitigate.

• ATex7239
• Replies: 8
• Forum: Used Oil Analysis - Gasoline

• 
• 

It is absolutely GDI. It just has the ability to run PI only at times based on RPM and load. It has larger profile of GDI being in play than not.

Fuel system (D-4S)

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1 - ECM, 2 - fuel pressure sensor (high), 3 - fuel rail (high pressure), 4 - direct fuel injector, 5 - fuel delivery pipe with sensor (low pressure), 6 - port fuel injector, 7 - fuel pump ECU, 8 - fuel tank, 9 - fuel main valve (high pressure), 10 - fuel main valve assembly (low pressure), 11 - fuel filter, 12 - fuel pump (low pressure), 13 - fuel suction filter, 14 - fuel pump (high pressure), 15 - fuel sus filter, 16 - fuel pressure pulsation damper, 17 - spill control valve, 18 - check valve (60 kpa), 19 - fuel relief valve (26.4 MPa), 20 - exhaust camshaft.​

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Fuel injection - combined: directly in the combustion chamber and multipoint in the inlet ports. At low to medium loads - combined injection is applied - homogeneous mixture increases the stability of the combustion process and reduces emissions. Under a heavy load use direct fuel injection - the evaporation of the fuel in the cylinder filling mass improves and reduces the tendency to knock.

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1 - injection in port, 2 - injection in cylinder + port, 3 - injection in cylinder.​

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[ekpolk]

Appreciate the positivity, but in reality - Hybrids are the quickest way for Toyota to boost their CAFE. Unlike their competitors, they have the scalable infrastructure and technology to produce large quantities.

There are almost always multiple reasons for decisions like this. Nowhere did I say or suggest that CAFE requirements didn’t factor into that decision. Pretty clearly, that was ONE OF the considerations that led Toyota to this decision.

 

[ekpolk]

ATex: 1) I’m very, very well aware of how the D4S system works. It is not GDI, in the sense of being GDI-only. It does use GDI AS PART OF its overall design. GDI is a sub-part of the fuel injection in a D4S car, to use the GDI label alone, without more, fails to accurately and completely describe the system. The diagrams you yourself posted above establish this very clearly.

2) Obviously, fuel dilution is a known possible issue in cars that use direct injection. But it’s not the only cause of dilution. While I’m NOT saying that your Sienna’s issue wasn’t caused by the fuel injection, you can’t say it’s THE cause either. Even your analysis report notes the possibility of a fuel leak. Which could come from either the direct injectors, the port injectors, or elsewhere.

3) And of course, fuel dilution existed long before DI became common in cars, reminding us that something like a poorly designed or obstructed crank case ventilation system may be THE or a contributing cause. Car Care Nut on YT has some good videos related to this, one of which discusses the low tension ring factor.

4) The 20 year old Prius is long gone. It’s the 25 Camry that warms up super quickly (so did the 18 Prius). No, this won’t cure fuel dilution, but it certainly will help reduce it.

 

[ATex7239]

2) Obviously, fuel dilution is a known possible issue in cars that use direct injection. But it’s not the only cause of dilution. While I’m NOT saying that your Sienna’s issue wasn’t caused by the fuel injection, you can’t say it’s THE cause either. Even your analysis report notes the possibility of a fuel leak. Which could come from either the direct injectors, the port injectors, or elsewhere.

It was checked out. Not a leaking injector issue.

 

[Leo99]

Can't take it with ya

We spend money on other things. We dropped almost $200 on dinner and a couple cocktails last night.

It's interesting how the opinions on bob range from change your oil at 100 miles when new so the engine lasts longer to dump a perfectly good car at 8-12 years simply because one can afford it.

 

[Gene K]

Still amazes me that with all the retired rich professionals hanging out here, that they can't afford a new/newer car after 8-12 years, just befuddles me. The last thing I want to do is drive a car with 200,000 plus miles on it. IMO YMMV

Everyone KNOWS I'm broke and I'm keeping it that way.

My sibling had it together and retired at 40 after buying one preowned car in their working lifetime.

 

[Hermann]

It's interesting how the opinions on bob range from change your oil at 100 miles when new so the engine lasts longer to dump a perfectly good car at 8-12 years simply because one can afford it.

OTOH look at all the 8-12 y.o. prime condition vehicles we are putting back on the market for the very frugal to frugalize over.