Do engines even wear out any more?

[glennc]

We've all seen the thread (now two threads) on the million mile Chevy, run on cheap oil and lackadaisical OCIs. We all see results in the UOA section of this site where engines have single-digit or low-double-digit wear metals over 6-12k OCIs or even longer.

I'm wondering whether ANY engine that is well maintained actually wears out these days at all.

Of course there is SOME wear: clearances eventually increase, the engine gets mechanically noisier and loses some of its new precision. But has anybody actually had an engine that was maintained properly, didn't have any particular flaws or mechanical trouble, and just wore out? On modern oil?

It seems to me that more often an engine just gets to the point where it is neglected, and either a timing belt breaks, or coolant gets into the oil, or the oil is not changed for so long that it all leaks out or gets burned or turns to sludge and the engine fails because it is eventually run without proper lubrication at all.

Or the whole car falls apart and the engine is still running fine.

What think ye?

 

[buster]

Engines are outlasting the rest of the car. Modern oils have no wear control issues in their intented applications.

 

[byez]

I think the general public are too worried about their oil, possibly due to oil marketing. Many will run out and change their oil every 3k but will never change their atf,coolant,brake fluid,p/s fluid for the life of the vehicle. It just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[hominid7]

All gas engines will eventually fail due to either wear or a critical event which shortens or ends its useful life. There are no exceptions.

Diesel engines tend to last much longer due to their design, however while running these engines a million miles is not unusual, they too eventually wear out or again have a critical event which ends or shortens it’s life.

Having said that, other than severe design flaws, user/operator error, and acts of g0d, there is no reason that most gas engines can not have a useful and dependable life of 200,000+ miles over a 10 – 20 year period. After 20 years cars tend to develop other problems with rot, rust, etc which make maintaining them a labor of love that most people are not interested in. However some are, and to those I applaud.

Lots of (gas) cars make 250,000.
Many cars make 500,000.
Not a lot make it much past that.

 

[JAG]

Some engines become unsuitable for continued use due to massive oil consumption to the degree that they leave a huge smoke cloud behind them. I owned an 1984 BMW 318i that ended up that way at 180K miles. I bought it in 1994 with 120K miles and did 3K mile OCIs using GTX 10W-30. The massive change in the state of the engine occured during those 60K miles that I owned it. I sold it because I didn't want to pay to have the engine rebuilt.

My coworker owned a high mileage Omni that had a lot of bearing wear and it had trouble keeping oil pressure. He had to add Lucas to keep the oil pressure reasonable. He sold it but eventually it won't have enough oil pressure on some part and it will croak.

 

[CBDFrontier06]

The last truly worn out engine I remember seeing was on a 78 Chevy pickup with a 350. It was the shop errand running truck / tow truck / snow plow for a dealership I worked for. It was maintained very well as far as oil changes, tune-ups and even had 2 clutches replaced, but eventually it lost so much compression due to ring wear that it had to slow down to start. The starter would actually spin the engine faster than idle speed. But it always started with a flick of the switch, even if kept outside in below zero temps. Even when worked very hard, it sounded fine. It was finally retired due to reliability concerns and frame and bed rust.

 

[FZ1]

Good question!! I concluded the same thing,that if I just used any of a number of "good oils" and changed them from 5-7 oci's of 1 year with a synthetic,for my driving,(I tow a small bass boat with my V6 Accord 175 miles every 3 weeks)I would be O.K. Great site for data review! Thanks,Bob.

 

[mpvue]

I had a '78 malibu w/ a 3 speed manual, junkyard 350 from the previous owner, and fresh nice bodywork and paint. looked great. no power at all. engine wouldn't rev over 3500. w/ the wide ratio 3 speed stick, it would bog going into 2nd. I had the valve covers off once when I 1st got it; the crud was so thick the oil drainback holes were clogged. I just buttoned it back up, and eventually sold it. but it idled fine, started all the time. I guess it just shows how durable those SBCs are even when they are abused/neglected.
back on topic, I think factory-spec, longer OCIs are evidence that oils are better, and engines are built better.

 

[lewk]

cut down or reduce friction totally and you will be a very rich person. no panacea here, mtbf rules

 

[Kestas]

I get a kick out of the posters who are obviously anal about their oil. These people are very often the first ones to lose interest in their car long before the engine is ever able to wear out - regardless of the maintenance.

You rarely read of a poster who has 200K on their car obsessing on oil maintenance. By then the love is gone.

 

[buster]

Originally Posted By: Kestas
I get a kick out of the posters who are obviously anal about their oil. These people are very often the first ones to lose interest in their car long before the engine is ever able to wear out - regardless of the maintenance.

You rarely read of a poster who has 200K on their car obsessing on oil maintenance. By then the love is gone.


So true.....

 

[bigjeffie]

acts of [censored]?

 

[bigjeffie]

acts of gee oh dee?

 

[bigjeffie]

Originally Posted By: hominid7
All gas engines will eventually fail due to either wear or a critical event which shortens or ends its useful life. There are no exceptions.

Diesel engines tend to last much longer due to their design, however while running these engines a million miles is not unusual, they too eventually wear out or again have a critical event which ends or shortens it’s life.

Having said that, other than severe design flaws, user/operator error, and acts of g0d, there is no reason that most gas engines can not have a useful and dependable life of 200,000+ miles over a 10 – 20 year period. After 20 years cars tend to develop other problems with rot, rust, etc which make maintaining them a labor of love that most people are not interested in. However some are, and to those I applaud.

Lots of (gas) cars make 250,000.
Many cars make 500,000.
Not a lot make it much past that.

 

[Crashbox]

Originally Posted By: buster
Engines are outlasting the rest of the car. [SNIP]


I think this might have begun with the Slant Six engines- I had a '68 Coronet that I finally got rid of but kept the engine (the speedometer/odometer was broke so it had unknown miles). I put that engine in my mom's old '73 Duster and when I got rid of that car I kept that same engine, probably with well over 200,000 miles. It ran incredibly smooth but only had about 10 horsepower!

I sometimes wonder what I'm going to do with that thing- still have it even though it hasn't been in any car since about 1990!

I do think that improvements in lubricating fluids, metallurgy and machining have contributed to increased engine life. It seems not-so-long ago that 100,000 miles between rebuilds was considered truly excellent...

 

[MGregoir]

If some engineers got together, and had the financing to back them, and looked at designing a vehicle from it must meet this performance standard for this much usage (and set that number high) rather than it must do this, for this price, for this long, I am sure that manufacturers could make a car that would require no repairs other than maintenence and wear items for 500,000 miles. It might cost you $40,000 for a car that specs out similarly to a $25,000 car, but it would last forever.

Who would take that bet outside of fleets though?

 

[ARB1977]

They generate wear over time, although neglect will speed up that process.

 

[CBDFrontier06]

Originally Posted By: MGregoir
If some engineers got together, and had the financing to back them, and looked at designing a vehicle from it must meet this performance standard for this much usage (and set that number high) rather than it must do this, for this price, for this long, I am sure that manufacturers could make a car that would require no repairs other than maintenence and wear items for 500,000 miles. It might cost you $40,000 for a car that specs out similarly to a $25,000 car, but it would last forever.

Who would take that bet outside of fleets though?


It's always been my opinion that this is how makers such as Mercedes-Benz and Rolls Royce did things at one time. There was a time when some of their engines literally ran forever, and since most owners kept pristine care of the rest of the vehicle, overall longevity was stellar.

I don't know that much about Rolls, but Mercedes clearly started engaging cost-cutting in the hearts and souls of their cars, as their reliability doesn't seem to be what it once was. Going with the lowest bidder when procuring small mass-produced parts seems to be Mercedes' biggest downfall. The last Benz I had experience with displayed excellent fit and finish, but suffered severely just beneath the surface where parts and electronic components were concerned. Motors, servos, wiring, etc. have all suffered, just as I imagine the quality of outsourced parts for their engines likely has as well. They probably had to cut costs somewhere, but IMO it's really affected reliability and longevity. 2 friends of mine both couldn't wait to get rid of their Benzes (98 C230, 2001 CLK 320) because they spent equal time driving loaners as they did their own cars.

 

[1sttruck]

How hard the engines are used varies a lot. A friend with a Chavy flatbed is on his second 350 in less than 80k miles as the engines are used real hard, the throttle basically being a on - off switch. A neighbor got less than 100k out of his F250 gasser as they used it for short trips in town and also used it with a cab over camper. Our 87 Honda Civic was shot at 120k miles, being low on compression in one cyclinder and blowing lots of blue smoke at startup. The 93 Taurus starting drinking lots of oil at around 160k or so miles, it got a bit better with cleaning and made it to 210k miles. It was used hard, commuting and also for vacations with five or six in the car with a carrier and full trunk.

 

[hominid7]

Originally Posted By: JAG
Some engines become unsuitable for continued use due to massive oil consumption to the degree that they leave a huge smoke cloud behind them. I owned an 1984 BMW 318i that ended up that way at 180K miles. I bought it in 1994 with 120K miles and did 3K mile OCIs using GTX 10W-30. The massive change in the state of the engine occured during those 60K miles that I owned it. I sold it because I didn't want to pay to have the engine rebuilt.



I believe the correct viscosity for an '84 BMW should have been 20w50 above 5*F. Using 10w30 above 50*F likely caused the massive increase in wear, thus falling into the operator error category. Then again, no way to know for certain without tearing down the engine.