Differential Pressure Data, Pure 1 & Motorcraft

Originally Posted By: mr_diy
Originally Posted By: mr_diy
How can there be negative DP values?
Is it possible your bypass filter is affecting the measurements?
I would think the filter's bypass should cap the DP at the full open PSI value?


Regarding negative DP, it may be that rapidly increasing pressure along with time differences between the sensors ( sensor 2 after sensor1) would explain this.

Maybe I misread your setup having a second bypass filter.

Honda and Toyota may know what they are doing with their OEM filters.

So with these preliminary results you are prepared to make the leap that relatively inefficient filters, ie. ~55-65% @ 20um, is the answer to the brief and relatively infrequent bypass events. Otoh, perhaps the other OEM filters including Motorcraft, AC Delco and Chrysler would say not so much.
 
Originally Posted By: mr_diy
I assume you are adding the temp and rpm values from independent means. As suggested, correlated RPM data would be helpful if timestamps could be accurate between two collecting applications.


I believe all of Jim's data is ran though a single unit and logged there as well. This is not a cheap randomly assembled set up.

And yes, thanx Jim. Awesome contributions as always.
 
Found it...

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
It's Isspro's Performax. Google it. Good setup. It's primarily intended for diesels.


Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Two OP gauges but when I datalog (all the gauges are daisy-chained and feed into a central control unit with a USB port), it reads four times per second so I get good numbers then. They are stepper gauges so they dance a little making exact measurement a little touch.
 
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Originally Posted By: mr_diy
Originally Posted By: mr_diy
How can there be negative DP values?
Is it possible your bypass filter is affecting the measurements?
I would think the filter's bypass should cap the DP at the full open PSI value?


Regarding negative DP, it may be that rapidly increasing pressure along with time differences between the sensors ( sensor 2 after sensor1) would explain this.

Maybe I misread your setup having a second bypass filter.

Honda and Toyota may know what they are doing with their OEM filters.

So with these preliminary results you are prepared to make the leap that relatively inefficient filters, ie. ~55-65% @ 20um, is the answer to the brief and relatively infrequent bypass events. Otoh, perhaps the other OEM filters including Motorcraft, AC Delco and Chrysler would say not so much.

I am thinking of all the cold starts my vehicles have in winter and typical warmup times.
Also they have a pretty good record of knowing more than most about engineering reliability.
 
Originally Posted By: mr_diy
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Originally Posted By: mr_diy
Originally Posted By: mr_diy
How can there be negative DP values?
Is it possible your bypass filter is affecting the measurements?
I would think the filter's bypass should cap the DP at the full open PSI value?


Regarding negative DP, it may be that rapidly increasing pressure along with time differences between the sensors ( sensor 2 after sensor1) would explain this.

Maybe I misread your setup having a second bypass filter.

Honda and Toyota may know what they are doing with their OEM filters.

So with these preliminary results you are prepared to make the leap that relatively inefficient filters, ie. ~55-65% @ 20um, is the answer to the brief and relatively infrequent bypass events. Otoh, perhaps the other OEM filters including Motorcraft, AC Delco and Chrysler would say not so much.

I am thinking of all the cold starts my vehicles have in winter and typical warmup times.
Also they have a pretty good record of knowing more than most about engineering reliability.


So does Ford...... The Modular is probably the longest lasting gasoline engine on the planet.
 
Originally Posted By: mr_diy
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Originally Posted By: mr_diy
Honda and Toyota may know what they are doing with their OEM filters.

So with these preliminary results you are prepared to make the leap that relatively inefficient filters, ie. ~55-65% @ 20um, is the answer to the brief and relatively infrequent bypass events. Otoh, perhaps the other OEM filters including Motorcraft, AC Delco and Chrysler would say not so much.

I am thinking of all the cold starts my vehicles have in winter and typical warmup times.
Also they have a pretty good record of knowing more than most about engineering reliability.

Let's keep this thread on topic.
I see no reason to fault the MC filter in the posted results.
Look forward to additional runs.
 
Last edited:
Thank you very much for all your work... At the moment im sticking with the fram ultra but like i said im checking every filter i use very carefully.
 
Originally Posted By: slybunda
Any results on the synthetic filters?
This is from a while back, not sure if Jim Allen ever did get around to testing a syn media filter. IMHO, the DP would be LESS on a synthetic filter, causing fewer bypass events, & synthetic oil would lower the frequency even more.
 
Last edited:
[censored] would have been good to see real data on synthetic filters rather than just theory.
 
Sorry about this being a bit off-topic, but what would you guys
estimate the delta-P across a filter medium being with ATF?

I'm specifically thinking about the added restriction when using
a spin-on transmission filter in the cooler circuit...?

BTW, lots of fascinating info in this thread.
 
Originally Posted By: TheLoneRanger
Sorry about this being a bit off-topic, but what would you guys
estimate the delta-P across a filter medium being with ATF?

I'm specifically thinking about the added restriction when using
a spin-on transmission filter in the cooler circuit...?


You didn't ask this part, but dP across the housing is flow but not viscosity dependent ... I'd expect a proper design to be in the 1-3 psi range. The dP of the media is flow and viscosity sensitive, that is it additionally varies with temperature. In INDUSTRIAL systems, we usually shoot for the lower of 20% of indicator or 25% of bypass with clean media at operating temperature ... at a maximum. Half that is better. Assuming (dangerous to assume) a 15 psi bypass, a clean element might drop 3-4 psi at operating temperature. Our better industrial indicators often have "thermal lockout" to prevent indication below maybe 100F-110F.

Good design will have the indicator seeing element dP only, not housing dP. That's not always easy to do.
 
The delta-p measurements Jim was making were across the whole spin-on oil filter. Most of the delta-p across the filter is from the media itself, and part of the total delta-p is from the base plate holes, ADBV, and center tube holes. I've never seen the split of the total delta-p between all the elements comprising a spin-on filter actually measured by anyone, but my bet is if you measured the delta-p across a spin-on filter with the media removed the delat-p was be very low.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
The delta-p measurements Jim was making were across the whole spin-on oil filter. Most of the delta-p across the filter is from the media itself, and part of the total delta-p is from the base plate holes, ADBV, and center tube holes. I've never seen the split of the total delta-p between all the elements comprising a spin-on filter actually measured by anyone, but my bet is if you measured the delta-p across a spin-on filter with the media removed the delta-p was be very low.


I agree with you 100%; I'm accustomed to assemblies where the bypass is in a housing separate from the element (whether spin-on or cartridge) and the housing connects to plumbing. He and you are discussing engine filters, and I got off topic.

Sorry
 
Does Jim Allen still post here? I always enjoyed his knowledgeable posts. Especially since he and I owned 5.4 3v F150's at the same time. That made his experiments especially interesting to me.
 
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