Difference between A3/B3 and A3/B4?

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe

Forget MB 229.3. This is another spec that tends to come 'for free' once you have the other stuff in the bag.


What !!

So you make a good (not sneaky) 40 grade SN & A3/B4 and you get MB 229.3 & MB 229.1 for free. So what else do you most likely get for free, and more importantly which OEM's actually mean something ?

What about VW 502 00 / 505 00 or RN 0700 / 0710 or JASO SG+ ?? (These are all the extra specs that Shell Helix HX7 10W-40 semi-synthetic has - which I foolishly assumed meant something).




VW 505 seals could be tricky but the engine performance came for free on any oil, however skanky. VW 502 you had to work for.

JASO specs tended to also come for free.

Can't remember now but I seem to recall that the Renault approvals revolved around glassware tests and that provided you had enough synthetic in the mix, these could be passed.

Just to be clear, with all of these approvals, you do have to actually run & pass the requisite tests and you wouldn't say automatically run JASO friction tests as part of any API/ACEA PCMO program. What I'm saying is if you do run the tests and you've got your basic PCMO properly sorted, chances are the tests will pass first time. Only in that sense do they come 'for free'.

 

[Popsy]

That is so true...0W60 might be even better though

But I agree. I guess with newer engines something like a VII-free 15W20 or 10W20 oil could be usable. But then you have the fuel economy at cold start...

 

[Kamele0N]

Originally Posted By: Popsy
Interesting point, looking forward for the answer.
Why is Shell Helix HX7 10W40 229.3, where (say) the equivalent Total/Elf 10W40 is only 229.1?
I understand 229.3 comes with restrictions in terms of viscosity grades, but 10W40 aren't concerned.

According to some russian oil forum discussion about Shell HX7 10W40, according to it's sulfur rate, it might actually use a lot of Gr I base oil (the Russian to English translation is a bit fishy so not sure I got it right)
http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/14961...500-rn07000710/


Thats an old batch.....

Hence

Instead of

And can someone please explain a JASO SG+ spec for me????

 

[1JZ_E46]

How do Group II 15W-40s handle high heat, say from a really hot turbocharger, compared to Group III or Group III/IV mix? Also, how do you tell if a 15W-40 is Group II and not Group I? Reason I ask is that I have another car with a Toyota inline 6 JZ engine and a big 'ol turbo hanging off the side. It's a summer car, so I could care less about cold flow, and what you've said here makes me wonder if a good heavy duty 15W-40 would be good/better than some fancy 5/10W-40 synthetic.

 

[SR5]

That's one of the questions that always gets me too.

How do you know it's a pure Group II mineral oil and not a mix of Grp I and Grp II ?

Also, some semi-synthetics can be a mix of Grp I and Grp III, how do you tell this? I would prefer a semi-synthetic made on Grp II and Grp III (or higher).

Even though I'm convinced a good Group II 15W40 or 10W30 mineral oil would work well for me, it's hard to know exactly what you are buying.

At least when you buy a synthetic, you know you are getting Group III or higher.

I remember when Joe told me it's not unusual for a semi-synthetic (in Europe) to use Group I - shocking !!! It sounds like it's regional and it depends on where the oil is formulated and what are the local base stock available.

 

[SR5]

Quote:
Just to be clear, with all of these approvals, you do have to actually run & pass the requisite tests and you wouldn't say automatically run JASO friction tests as part of any API/ACEA PCMO program. What I'm saying is if you do run the tests and you've got your basic PCMO properly sorted, chances are the tests will pass first time. Only in that sense do they come 'for free'.


Thanks again for all your input Joe, very valuable for us amateurs.

Two 10W-40 semi-synthetics easily found in Australia are Castrol Magnatec and Shell Helix HX7.

The Magnatec lists only SN & A3/B4 while the HX7 adds MB 229.3, VW 502/505, RN etc.

Sounds like Shell went to the trouble of running the tests while Castrol didn't - probably to try and push Euro car owners up to their more expensive Edge product that does list all the OEMs and more.

 

[chrisri]

Truly a great topic but I can't help myself wonder what is wrong with a "basic",meet everything, 5w40?. I have nothing against 15w40 or 10w40, they have their place in history and, maybe a niche market in the present. I've seen quite a few opened up engines driven on latest specs (either A3/B4 or C3) and they were almost always spotless- except neglected ones and TSI/TFSI but that's another topic).

If I remember back when I started driving (and doing repairs in necessity) engines didn't looked as good IME- and with much shorter OCI. So either oils were generally worse then or it does have something with modern grades and OEM approvals. Just thinking out loud.

 

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
How do Group II 15W-40s handle high heat, say from a really hot turbocharger, compared to Group III or Group III/IV mix? Also, how do you tell if a 15W-40 is Group II and not Group I? Reason I ask is that I have another car with a Toyota inline 6 JZ engine and a big 'ol turbo hanging off the side. It's a summer car, so I could care less about cold flow, and what you've said here makes me wonder if a good heavy duty 15W-40 would be good/better than some fancy 5/10W-40 synthetic.


Turbochargers can be strange beasts. Some of earlier ones were extremely hard on oil, especially when the engine was switched off after a long run, and static oil was left to 'cook' in a very hot housing. For those kind of turbos, you really need oils based on PAO or Ester and you would be wise to avoid anything that's Group I, II or III based. Having said that, some of the modern, small, water cooled turbos are far less harsh on oil. My guess would be that there are plenty of turbo engines in the US that are tootling along quite happily with Group II oils.

As regards the question, how do you know if an oil is Group I or Group II? The simple answer is that you don't. In theory, it's easy to answer. All you need to know is the sulphur content of the oil. If it's less than 0.4%-ish, it's definitely not Group I (typically you'll get 0.3% sulphur from ZDDP with a bit more on top from sulphonates/phenates & sulphurised AOs). Sadly oil companies don't publish sulphur contents in their blurb.

If your oil meets API SN, then chances are it's not Group I. Sulphur is purposely constrained to 0.6% max for 10W30 and 0.5% max for anything thinner. Thicker grades are NOT sulphur constrained but it would be extremely hard (and very likely not cost-effective) to get a Group I 15W40 through the Sequence IIIG test.

Finally, if you live in the US, Group I in engine oil has totally disappeared. In Asia, my guess it's almost (but not entirely) disappeared. As engine oil demand has rocketed in China, all of the new base oil capacity that has come on stream has been Group II/III. However I suspect that in Europe, Middle-East & Africa you will still find oils that are based on Group I.

 

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
Truly a great topic but I can't help myself wonder what is wrong with a "basic",meet everything, 5w40?. I have nothing against 15w40 or 10w40, they have their place in history and, maybe a niche market in the present. I've seen quite a few opened up engines driven on latest specs (either A3/B4 or C3) and they were almost always spotless- except neglected ones and TSI/TFSI but that's another topic).

If I remember back when I started driving (and doing repairs in necessity) engines didn't looked as good IME- and with much shorter OCI. So either oils were generally worse then or it does have something with modern grades and OEM approvals. Just thinking out loud.


You're correct. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a basic 5W40. There's no argument that a full synthetic (in Europe very likely a full Group III) 5W40 will technically give you better performance and longer life than a Group I/III 10W40 or an all Group I 15W40. However full synthetics in Europe are undeniably more expensive and SR5 raises a valid question in asking does double the price give you double the oil?

For the sake of argument, if the comparison was between Group III and Group I, I might answer yes. However, if the comparison is between Group III and Group II, then under certain circumstances, I might well answer no.

You do have to be very specific here in what you're comparing. A full Group III 5W40 is undeniably better than a full Group II 5W40. However a Group II 15W40 might have several advantages over a Group III 5W40 and yet be significantly cheaper.

TBH, a lot of this reflects your basic philosophy towards money. Many folks take the view that oil is cheap whilst engine repairs are expensive, so they throw Mobil 1 at the problem and change it twice as often as they need to. However, to people like me, who hate waste in any form, this is anathema! I also see it as bad science. I can't help think that marketing, and over reaction to faddish OEM issues, has pushed modern oil design to a place it should never have arrived at. I've thought for a long time that there should for a more thoughtful reappraisal of the basic problems of what oil should be and do...but I'm not holding my breath!

 

[SR5]

Here is a related thread that is worth reading
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4147223/1

An excellent read, with Joe adding a lot of good knowledge.

 

[Shannow]

Awesome thread...to me the wide spread "50s" make no sense...you get the HTHS of a 15W-40, heck, the KV40 is about the same, so fuel savings aren't there, plus you get the deposits, shear resistance etc. penalties.

Going back a few posts on "W" grades and basestocks.

Redline and RP both claim fully synthetic "15W40s"...is this realistic ?

 

[1JZ_E46]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Redline and RP both claim fully synthetic "15W40s"...is this realistic ?


I was wondering the same. SoJ mentioned that there’s no real Group III 15w-40, or anything heavier for that matter. What about full syn 15W-40? 10W-60? 20w-50? What base oil is used?

 

[SR5]

Penrite make a 10-Tenths Racing that is 100% PAO and Ester in two heavy weight grades, 15W-50 and 20W-60, plus the lighter stuff.
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/brands/10-tenths-racing

I think Joe was saying you can't get a thick / heavy Group III synthetic, but I believe PAO is different. I recall him saying that the GTL Shell Helix Ultra 5W40 must contain PAO as he didn't believe you could get heavy enough GTL base stock to make that viscosity grade. That is if my memory serves me correctly, but I'm sure Joe will be around soon enough to speak for himself.

 

[1JZ_E46]

Interesting. There has to be a heavier Group III. I would be very surprised if M1 15W-50, for example, had any PAO/ester given its price point.

Edit: just checked, M1 15w-50 has 10-20% PAO! I guess that’s enough to thicken it up?

 

[Silk]

I'm using Penrite V Twin 20W-50 which is PAO and ester, the HPR10 is suposed to be a 10W-50 full synth, but they don't mention what's in it like they do 10-Tenths or the motorcycle oils.

 

[SR5]

When I phoned Castrol a few years ago, they confirmed that both their 0W40 and their 10W60 Edge products contained PAO.

 

[Popsy]

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Redline and RP both claim fully synthetic "15W40s"...is this realistic ?


I was wondering the same. SoJ mentioned that there’s no real Group III 15w-40, or anything heavier for that matter. What about full syn 15W-40? 10W-60? 20w-50? What base oil is used?


+1. For example this one

claims PAO/ester. Is that even possible? Or just a whatever gr I or II to be thick enough, plus a gob of PAO/ester to look good and be expensive?

 

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Redline and RP both claim fully synthetic "15W40s"...is this realistic ?


I was wondering the same. SoJ mentioned that there’s no real Group III 15w-40, or anything heavier for that matter. What about full syn 15W-40? 10W-60? 20w-50? What base oil is used?


I should have been more specific.

You can't make an all Group III 15W40 or 20W50. I don't know for sure but I guess the same is true for GTL base oils.

However you definitely can make a 15W40 & 20W50 from PAO because you can polymerise PAO to as high a molecular weight as you want. My knowledge of esters is a bit flaky but I suspect you could engineer very heavy ester base oils if you wanted to.

I should have made this clear. Soz...

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Awesome thread......

Yes it is.

I think it's worth linking to another awesome thread that has good input on oil formulation ....ignore the bickering, we were all young back then.

Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: SR5
Just say we have three 40 weight oils from the same name brand manufacturer.

The first is a top shelf, full synthetic, 0W-40, MB229.5, BMW LL-01 etc

The second is a middle level, semi-synthetic, 10W-40, A3/B4

The third is a economical to purchase, mineral, 15W-40, SN

What would be the differences in VII's used (type and dose rate)?

Would there be a big difference in the quality of the VII's that is reflected in the purchase price of the product. Or is it more base stock and marketing ?

For me a full synthetic is about 250% more expensive than a name brand mineral.


0W40 & 10W40 - odds are something like this would use a Styrenic Polymer but the treat rates would vary depending on the base oil choice. For example the 10W40 could have as low as 6-8% and the 0W40 as high as 18%. These VII's are generally more shear stable (5 SSI) but require more product to get the same level of thickening (polymeric efficiency). These polymers get chosen typically for shear stability, deposit control and dispersency are the main issues. Remember VII is only one part of the entire formula - so the formulator has to balance the VII needs with the rest of the DI package involved.

The 15W40 would most likely contain an OCP. probably something in the 25-35 SSI range. These polymers typically have good efficiency (meaning you get the required thickening at smaller concentrations) but they don't have the same level of shear stability and some would say that higher concentrations contribute to deposits in certain engine tests. OCP's are generally the cheaper of the two, so the final price of the product may reflect that.

There are lots of reasons why a formulator or oil marketer would choose to use different VII/VM packages - sometimes it's a performance requirement, sometimes its for reduced manufacturing complexity, sometimes its price. When you think about all the little details that go on to get to that final formula just right - you can probably see why formulators get annoyed when internet gurus and aftermarket companies thinks it's ok to mix in their own "special ingredients" as a way to improve on the formula - especially when there is no standardized testing involved.


Ref: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3949784/1

Originally Posted By: SR5

VI - viscosity index
VM - viscosity modifier
VII - viscosity index improvers
DI - Detergent Inhibitor package (not direct injection)
FM - Friction Modifiers
J300 - engine oil standard (SAE)
KV - Kinematic Viscosity
HTHS - High Temperature High Shear viscosity
CCS - cold cranking simulator (cold start cranking)
MRV - Mini Rorary viscometer values (cold start pumping)
AGMA - American Gear Manufacturers Association
ILMA - Independent Lubricant Manufacturers Association
PAO - polyalphaolefins
mPAO - metallocene polyalphaolefin base stock
OCP - olefin co-polymers
PMA - poly-methacrylates
shellvis - a styrene-butadiene
Lz - Lubrizol
EHD - elastohydrodynamic lubrication
SV - Infineum start stracture polymer VM
KO30 - Shear test
Pants - bad


Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
PIB - Poly Iso-Butylene (the starting point for ashless dispersant)

PIBSA - PIB Succinic Acid (ashless intermediate)

TU5 - the Peugeot TU5 gasoline engine test in ACEA A3

VW T4 - a silly Volkswagen test which fiddles it's own emissions

SSI - Shear Stability Index of a VII polymer

Shellvis - a VII polymer known for starting fights on BITOG

Polymeric Efficiency - a measure of a VII's ability to meet a complex, pre-defined set of viscometric/volatility targets at the lowest possible polymer treat rate

Polymeric Cost-Efficiency - something grubby to do with money that only filthy working class people whose crockery is too thick talk about

 

[Shannow]

No probs..

there's been a meme for a long time on the board that synthetics (like TGMO 0W20, or Mobil Racing 0W50 with it's 3.7HTHS) get their "0W" rating "by accident" as a result of their superior ingredients.

The 15W therefore strikes me as a bit odd, given that if it met 10W or 5W it must be labelled as such.