Difference between A3/B3 and A3/B4?

[Oro_O]

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Also:

I reached out to Mobil Oil to see if they would provide a NOACK figure for their M1 HM 10W-40 as it would be going in a BMW which specs a max of 10% (LL-01). Mobil stated the NOACK is 7.6%. That's a respectable figure, and its consistent with what SoJ was explaining.


Impressive number and very interesting to know.

Who/what/how did you get it? I would like to get the value for the M1 10w30 HM. I have thought for a while the base oil quality in these two oils in particular are better than generally recognized.

 

[1JZ_E46]

Originally Posted By: Or
Impressive number and very interesting to know.

Who/what/how did you get it? I would like to get the value for the M1 10w30 HM. I have thought for a while the base oil quality in these two oils in particular are better than generally recognized.


I just went to the "Contact Us" page on the Mobil Oil website and selected "Technical Question." They responded within a couple days.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
BMW which specs a max of 10% (LL-01).

Not that it's a big deal, but I have not seen LL01 calling for a 10% Noack limit. Where did you find this?

MB 229.5 spec has such a limit though.

 

[1JZ_E46]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
BMW which specs a max of 10% (LL-01).

Not that it's a big deal, but I have not seen LL01 calling for a 10% Noack limit. Where did you find this?

MB 229.5 spec has such a limit though.


I can't recall, you may be right. All the A3/B4 euro-manufacturer approvals sort of get mixed up and mushed into one spec in my head since they are almost always found together.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: wemay
Thanks Joe!


Yes Thanks Joe !!!!! Great Answer.
I suspect you are correct and that the name brand mineral oils are much better than their price tag suggest, or more probably the synthetics here are way over priced, seeing what our American friends pay.

BTW I fixed my typo from above
Quote:
The mineral is easily half the price of the synthetic, but is it half the oil?


The new GTX 15W40 UltraClean is SN & A3/B3 but also claims to be semi-synthetic Castrol say the new UltraClean is 50% cleaner "compared with API SN Seq. VG Sludge test limit". This new oil is at a fairly good price.

 

[SonofJoe]

Just a couple more thoughts on this topic...

Most folks on BITOG have by now heard my standard rant about why Group II base oils make for really poor quality ILSAC GF-5 5W30s and the like. My objections are based on the fact that you end up with oils that are far too volatile and contain far too much, highly shearable VI.

However, this is more a case of base oil misuse rather anything specifically wrong with Group IIs. Group IIs make for excellent 15W40s. They are far more resistant to oxidation than any Group I 15W40 and as such are far less susceptible to sludge & deposit formation.

And it gets better! All things being equal, there's not much difference between the volatilities of Group Is & Group IIs. However, because of their superior resistance to oxidation, Group II oils require less additive (especially AO & Ashless Dispersant) to meet a given spec. Given the way things work, this means you squeeze more heavy Group II base oil into say a 15W40 than you could for the equivalent Group I system. The net effect is that a Group II 15W40 will generally have a lower Noack than a Group I 15W40 for a given spec level.

There's one last thing that's worth pointing out and that is you generally can't make a Group III 15W40 oil even if you wanted to. This is because the Group III production process tends to destroy heavy base oils and there is no equivalent to heavy 500/600SN Group I or 500N Group II. From a fuel economy point of view, heavy base oils are bad but from a fundamental engine lubrication POV, they are universally good.

So in a Group II 15W40, you get an oil which has low Noack, low VII loading, virtually the same oxidation resistance as a Group III oil and superior physical lubrication properties. Oh, and I almost forgot...it's as cheap as chips!

PS - and you can generally put more ZDDP is a 15W40. Yay!!

 

[Popsy]

SonofJoe, thank you for giving us details about 5W40, 10W40 and 15W40 oils.
But what about some 5W50? Are they just 5W40 loaded with VI? I have 8L of 5W50 AB/B3, can I assume it isn't able to get the B4 cert because of the VI which cause too much ring deposits?
(I know my question is quite a long shot, sorry)

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
So in a Group II 15W40, you get an oil which has low Noack, low VII loading, virtually the same oxidation resistance as a Group III oil and superior physical lubrication properties. Oh, and I almost forgot...it's as cheap as chips!

PS - and you can generally put more ZDDP is a 15W40. Yay!!


Thanks Joe, you are selling it to me nicely.

Right now GTX 15W40 UltraClean semi-synthetic (SN, A3/B3) is on sale at $18 for 5L (regular price is $36), while M1 5W30 is on sale at $50 for 5L with the M1 regular price being $100 for 5L.

My car owners manual list two grades 10W30 or 15W40 in either A3/B3 or A3/B4, so the 15W40 hits the nail on the head for both price and factory approval. Climate wise, we have no problems with 15W in Australia.

We also get a nice Shell Helix HX5 15W-40 (SN & A3/B3) mineral, which you can pick up at Kmart any day of the week at $26 for 5L, and even cheaper on sale.

The Penrite Vantage 15W40 semi-synthetic is SN, A3/B4, MB 229.1 and VW 502 / 505 with a TBN of 10.1 and 1090 ppm zinc, that stuff is always on sale too.

I should just run a good 15W40 and be done with it.

 

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: Popsy
SonofJoe, thank you for giving us details about 5W40, 10W40 and 15W40 oils.
But what about some 5W50? Are they just 5W40 loaded with VI? I have 8L of 5W50 AB/B3, can I assume it isn't able to get the B4 cert because of the VI which cause too much ring deposits?
(I know my question is quite a long shot, sorry)



Generally yes; 5W50 is 5W40 loaded up with extra VII. There might be some mitigation in that the 5W50 might be full PAO/Ester plus Shellvis VII (as opposed to an all Group III 5W40 with OCP VII).

However, whichever way you slice the salami, getting a B4 VW Tdi pass on a 5W50 will always be difficult for exactly the reasons you cited. Even if I saw a B4 5W50, I'd assume the formulator got what's called 'a one in plenty' test pass which, whilst valid, isn't what you might call scientifically honest.

 

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
So in a Group II 15W40, you get an oil which has low Noack, low VII loading, virtually the same oxidation resistance as a Group III oil and superior physical lubrication properties. Oh, and I almost forgot...it's as cheap as chips!

PS - and you can generally put more ZDDP is a 15W40. Yay!!


Thanks Joe, you are selling it to me nicely.

Right now GTX 15W40 UltraClean semi-synthetic (SN, A3/B3) is on sale at $18 for 5L (regular price is $36), while M1 5W30 is on sale at $50 for 5L with the M1 regular price being $100 for 5L.

My car owners manual list two grades 10W30 or 15W40 in either A3/B3 or A3/B4, so the 15W40 hits the nail on the head for both price and factory approval. Climate wise, we have no problems with 15W in Australia.

We also get a nice Shell Helix HX5 15W-40 (SN & A3/B3) mineral, which you can pick up at Kmart any day of the week at $26 for 5L, and even cheaper on sale.

The Penrite Vantage 15W40 semi-synthetic is SN, A3/B4, MB 229.1 and VW 502 / 505 with a TBN of 10.1 and 1090 ppm zinc, that stuff is always on sale too.

I should just run a good 15W40 and be done with it.


There's only one oil I might consider better for Oz than a Group II 15W40 and that would be a Group II 15W30. Just zap most of the VII, get even more heavy Group II in the mix, get an even lower Noack, still have close to 3.5 HTHS but have an oil that is essentially unshearable, have a bit of credit for saving the planet through better FE and...get this... it's almost certainly A3/B4 AND it will be even cheaper than the 15W40!

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
There's only one oil I might consider better for Oz than a Group II 15W40 and that would be a Group II 15W30. Just zap most of the VII, get even more heavy Group II in the mix, get an even lower Noack, still have close to 3.5 HTHS but have an oil that is essentially unshearable, have a bit of credit for saving the planet through better FE and...get this... it's almost certainly A3/B4 AND it will be even cheaper than the 15W40!


I would have no problems buying a 15W30 oil, but alas I have never seen one here.

The closest I can get is either a 10W30 A5/B5 full synthetic (Group III) or a 10W30 A3/B4 semi-synthetic or a 10W30 SN & GF-5 semi-synthetic / full mineral.

I've used both 15W40 A3/B3 mineral and 10W30 A3/B4 semi-synthetic before, both were good - by the seat of my pants.

 

[Popsy]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Generally yes; 5W50 is 5W40 loaded up with extra VII. There might be some mitigation in that the 5W50 might be full PAO/Ester plus Shellvis VII (as opposed to an all Group III 5W40 with OCP VII).

However, whichever way you slice the salami, getting a B4 VW Tdi pass on a 5W50 will always be difficult for exactly the reasons you cited. Even if I saw a B4 5W50, I'd assume the formulator got what's called 'a one in plenty' test pass which, whilst valid, isn't what you might call scientifically honest.

What about the MB 229.3 cert? Can we assume for example that M1 5W50 is taking profit of an excellent base oil to pass A3/B4 plus the additional 229.3 (which doesn't seem to add piston ring cleanliness factors, correct me if I'm wrong)?
What I have is some Selenia oil, with a -33° pour point, I guess it's plain old Group III.

 

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: Popsy
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Generally yes; 5W50 is 5W40 loaded up with extra VII. There might be some mitigation in that the 5W50 might be full PAO/Ester plus Shellvis VII (as opposed to an all Group III 5W40 with OCP VII).

However, whichever way you slice the salami, getting a B4 VW Tdi pass on a 5W50 will always be difficult for exactly the reasons you cited. Even if I saw a B4 5W50, I'd assume the formulator got what's called 'a one in plenty' test pass which, whilst valid, isn't what you might call scientifically honest.

What about the MB 229.3 cert? Can we assume for example that M1 5W50 is taking profit of an excellent base oil to pass A3/B4 plus the additional 229.3 (which doesn't seem to add piston ring cleanliness factors, correct me if I'm wrong)?
What I have is some Selenia oil, with a -33° pour point, I guess it's plain old Group III.



I had a quick squint at the M1 5W50 product datasheet. It has a 17.5 cst KV100 so I think you can say with some certainty, this stuff is based on Shellvis VII (I'm guessing Sv 200). If that's the case, then it follows this stuff is primarily based on PAO.

Put the two things together and you will have a 5W50 with a reduced VII loading (but one still on the high side in absolute terms). Maybe you could get a kosher B4 Tdi pass on this juice. Maybe. Of course, under the rules, you're under no obligation to run ACEA tests on the EXACT final commercial oil. You have a degree of flexibility to optimise an oil to engineer a specific test pass and then read across the result to the commercial oil. It's a bit sneaky but everyone does it (I used to be very good at doing exactly this!)

Forget MB 229.3. This is another spec that tends to come 'for free' once you have the other stuff in the bag.

 

[Popsy]

Thank you for your insight!
Better to avoid 5W50 (and wide range oils as a general rule) when ring cleanliness is a factor then.

Just one more question ; can this PDF tell you something about this oil? I fear it is terrible oil^^

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe

Forget MB 229.3. This is another spec that tends to come 'for free' once you have the other stuff in the bag.


What !!

So you make a good (not sneaky) 40 grade SN & A3/B4 and you get MB 229.3 & MB 229.1 for free. So what else do you most likely get for free, and more importantly which OEM's actually mean something ?

What about VW 502 00 / 505 00 or RN 0700 / 0710 or JASO SG+ ?? (These are all the extra specs that Shell Helix HX7 10W-40 semi-synthetic has - which I foolishly assumed meant something).

 

[Popsy]

Interesting point, looking forward for the answer.
Why is Shell Helix HX7 10W40 229.3, where (say) the equivalent Total/Elf 10W40 is only 229.1?
I understand 229.3 comes with restrictions in terms of viscosity grades, but 10W40 aren't concerned.

According to some russian oil forum discussion about Shell HX7 10W40, according to it's sulfur rate, it might actually use a lot of Gr I base oil (the Russian to English translation is a bit fishy so not sure I got it right)
http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/14961...500-rn07000710/

 

[SR5]

Quote:
Why is Shell Helix HX7 10W40 229.3, where (say) the equivalent Total/Elf 10W40 is only 229.1?


Yep and Valvoline Durablend 10W-40 is also only MB 229.1

I was expecting that the Shell HX7 being MB 229.3 might mean something.

 

[SR5]

That VOA of Shell Helix HX7 10W-40 semi-synthetic on the Russian oil forum looks interesting, thanks for the link.
KV40 = 92 cSt. (96.31 from Shell data)
KV100 = 14.1 cSt (14.37 from Shell data)
TBN = 10.4
Noack = 7.7 %
Zinc = 1040 ppm
Ca = 3050 ppm
B = 80 ppm
Mo = 0
(I've rounded the VOA numbers a little)
FP = 246 C (shell data)
PP = -45 C (shell data)

 

[Popsy]

Something is weird : PP is -45° ??? Either it's a typo, of this oil is really something. GTL base?

The "full synthetic" Rimula R6M (ACEA E4/E7 and MB 228.5) has a pour point of -42°, Total Quartz 7000, -24°, Total rubia TIR 8600, -39°.

 

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: Popsy
Thank you for your insight!
Better to avoid 5W50 (and wide range oils as a general rule) when ring cleanliness is a factor then.

Just one more question ; can this PDF tell you something about this oil? I fear it is terrible oil^^


As far as I can tell, this Petronas 5W50 is all Group III and OCP based. The VII loading on such an oil will be high and I'd predict getting a B4 level TDI would be difficult (but B3 would be okay).

I wouldn't say this oil is terrible as much as it is pointless and over complicated. These wide cross-grade oils sound clever because they allow you to drive from the Sahara desert to the North Pole...but who does that on a day-to-day basis?? Life would be easier for everyone if oils were designed to deal with real-life as opposed to this theoretical-life of implausible extremes.