How many of these are diesel?
A3/B4 in HDEO application, what would go wrong?
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All those ACEA E HDEO are most likely for commercial vehicles like box trucks, busses, excavators and heavier machinery.
Not sure if a personal pickup truck that tows once in a while is equal to those commercial diesel vehicles. Also they have much larger oil sumps than any pickup truck meaning if running inferior oils they keep them cooler and most likely have engine oil coolers too.
Bottom of the page:
https://www.valvolineglobal.com/en-eur/understanding-oil-standards-acea-specifications/
- E11 oils replace E9 oils. Those are super-high-performance mid-SAPS diesel oils (SHPD). With the HT/HS lower than 3.5 mPas, they are suitable for diesel engines with diesel particulate filters.
So that's that. The ACEA E11 HDEOs (Rotella oils) have lower HTHS than passenger car, light duty vans A3/B4 oils (Mobil 1 FS 0W-40).
ACEA E11 need ht/hs ≥3.5cP and in reality are accompanied (in their xw-40 viscosity) by official OEM approvals requiring min.3.9cP after-shear viscosity (90 cycles per ASTM D4683 or CEC L-36-90) .
https://www.acea.auto/files/2024-ACEA-oil-sequences-heavy-duty-engines-December-2024-Rev1.pdf
https://www.acea.auto/files/2024-ACEA-oil-sequences-heavy-duty-engines-December-2024-Rev1.pdf
Apples and oranges to compare Mobil 1 FS 0w-40 HTHS to all HDEOs. 3.5 might be a lower bound for E11 and maybe it's where the market is headed, but not typical of 40 weight examples. Delvac 1300 10w-30 is 3.6, but that's not a 40w.
Other factors:
That personal pickup that tows occasionally probably has higher rated power than the commercial variant. Look at the rated power for GM L5p (2500/3500, 470 hp) vs L5d (4500/5500 chassis, 350hp). Look at Cummins 6.7 in a pickup vs 4500, 5500, school bus, tractor, etc. Look at powerstroke in F250/350/450 (up to 500 hp) vs F650 (up to 330 hp). Point being, for 43% of my pickup's life it's actually living at similar gross weight but higher power output than a similar 6.7 in a school bus.
They might have larger sumps (does nothing for cooling) and oil coolers, but they also rely on piston cooling under sustained power in a way that passenger cars do not. (One of my two cars also has oil to water cooling.) My casual observation is that oil temperatures are typically 10 F over coolant in casual driving but may easily see 40 F delta towing on grades. Oil cooling was pretty easy to outrun on my older Duramax. Having an oil cooler keeps things in check but does not constrain the oil to an easy life at 200 F.
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Those are good observations. Thanks.
So, you are saying that the same gross weight and higher power of your pickup truck lives harder live than a bus (not necessarily school bus) which runs the streets for 8 hours loaded with people with excessive idling in rush our traffic and at bus stops too?
200°F is a perfect operating temp. for a gasoline engine oil (not sure about a diesel one). That's why oils' kinematic viscosity is measured at 212°F.
The modern "HD" diesel pickup, would absolutely be harder on oil than a commercial duty diesel engine, like what is found in a big rig or other.
Same HP output, less mass to absorb heat, less surface area to remove the heat, less oil to move the heat, etc.
You proved this yourself.........."certain" and "light"
You have made several references to what Europe does. We are not Europe. We drive 500hp jacked up trucks and pull out 20K toyhaulers through mountains and deserts........IN THE SAME DAY!......with likely an inferior fuel than Europe, across a country bigger than europe
If anyone cannot understand the difference between a light duty and commercial duty engine, it does not matter what oil they will use, because they wont have either.
Go buy a $500K excavator, run your non HDEO in it, and send the manufacturer a letter saying "well I decided to rum me some 0w20 ESP mobil 1 and see what happens.
My real world experience is that diesel pickup oil sees 10 F to 50 F over coolant depending on load. "Wow, oil pressure seems to be going down." Yup.
"Excessive idling?" Since when is idling bad for an engine? Are we buying into that again?
I'm not saying my truck and camper sees school bus or garbage truck drive cycle but it doesn't fall apart in stop and go and doesn't have the advantage of low gearing that those trucks do. There are plenty of 6.7 ISBs (with larger sumps) in box trucks, Class A or C RVs, ambulance, medical transport, road maintenance equipment, rail maintenance equipment, delivery trucks... all seeing various drive cycles but at detuned output compared to what comes in those silly little pickups that "never do real work." Oh, and then there's stationary use like generators and pump stations.
Perfect example would be hot shot rigs that aren't detuned and regularly hauling at high gross weight. All I'm saying is you can't night/day say one application lives an easy life (class 2-3 diesel pickups) and the other has it hard (class 4+.) There are plenty of pickups that work for a living.
What was your point again? That gasser oil sees harder use and is made to a higher standard because diesels have the advantage of low rpm, big sumps, and oil coolers. Okay. Sure. "Heavy duty"
So, what does that mean to you? It's not a diesel oil or not suitable for 6.0L pickup trucks?
Light duty
Commercial duty
Where is heavy duty and what's the difference with commercial duty?
Is a contraction kitchen/bathroom pickup truck same as commercial equipment (city bus, box truck/18-wheeler, excavator)?
l've never said to run ACEA A3/B4 oil in an excavator or any commercial machinery except passenger pickup trucks. Actually the opposite, I said the commercial diesel oils are rated ACEA E9/E11.
There was an oil aeration issue (remember Rotella lab tests on here by RDY4WAR) with ACEA E9 oils and they supposedly fixed that in the next standard E11 (after 2024) which replaced E9. I have cited it above.
There are still a lot of E9 diesel oils out there, so watch for them, especially at stores where the shelf diesel oils don't move that fast.
Diesel oils have even stringent environmental requirements than the gasoline oils because of the DPF/DEF of the first. And the A3/B4 oils (Mobil 1 FS 0W-40) are not part of that.
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All I am simply saying is that all diesel oil are not suitable for all diesel engines.
Any vehicle with a GVWR over 8600lbs, as it pertains to vehicles. As it pertains to equipment, I would say any equipment under continuous load above 80% power output. Both would be considered "Heavy duty" IMO. MPG regulation does not apply to truck over 8600lbs gvwr, neither are emissions inspected for these in NC.
Where is this from? All ACEA Ex and JASO DH-x ; Global DHD had the same requirements like ACEA Ax/Bx and Cx per ASTM D892 - (10-nil/50-nil/10ml-nil) and in the 2016 ACEA oil sequences E9 had the stricter 10-nil/20-nil/10-nil ml. , which all ACEA Ex require today (along with many OEM HD specifications lile MB 228.x/.xx, Volvo VDS,Mack EO- ,Cummins CES 20078-on,Detroit 93K214-on, MAN ,MTU etc).
As for the Hi-Temp ASTM D6082 foaming requirement, while ACEA has posed a looser limit for Ex oils (200-50ml), this one is hardly a challenge (it is non-existant in some OEM HD requirements. It's under "rate&report" ...or is present in HD Diesel cats like Global DHD or CES 20072 ...Natural Gas HD specs like DD 93K216). Plus , many HDEO's have been dual-rated (the stricter 100-nil per ASTM D6082 has been a requirement since the introduction of API SL).
Apart from this, aeration requirements have been standard for API DEO categories since API CG-4 (along with OEM HD ones) and some OEM PC ones (BMW,GM Dexos,PSA, FIAT with their own specifics) .
https://www.swri.org/sites/default/files/engine-oil-aeration.pdf
https://www.swri.org/sites/default/files/caterpillar-oil-aeration-test.pdf
https://www.api.org/-/media/files/c...iesel/publications/api 1509- 21st edition.pdf
https://www.infineuminsight.com/media/g0kjeqit/infineum-acea-oil-sequences-2024-brochure.pdf
I don't see what this fear with foaming and aeration is based on .
I'm sorry. I thought I wrote it on here but actually was in the motorcycle forum earlier this week or last week. I copied the information out of AUS website which explains the ACEA ratings. Here is the post:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/1992-honda-750-nighthawk-10w-40-or-15w-50.405850/post-7598220
Here is the AUS source page from where I copy/pasted the ACEA information:
https://penriteoil.com.au/knowledge-centre/Specifications/194/acea-service-classifications/364
Yes, ACEA officially introduced the aeration req. per ASTM D8047 (COAT) for E8 and E11 categories.This requirement has been present since the introduction of CK-4. Some OEM specs already had it in their requirements (just like with the EOAT test) before the introduction of E11 category by ACEA .
https://www.acea.auto/uploads/news_documents/2016_ACEA_oil_sequences_heavy-duty_engines.pdf
https://www.acea.auto/files/2022-ACEA-oil-sequences-heavy-duty-engines.pdf
https://www.lubrizol.com/company/specifications/acea-on-highway/acea-2022/acea-e11-22
I see no reason for worries concerning foaming,aeration etc. of HDEO oils.
https://www.acea.auto/uploads/news_documents/2016_ACEA_oil_sequences_heavy-duty_engines.pdf
https://www.acea.auto/files/2022-ACEA-oil-sequences-heavy-duty-engines.pdf
https://www.lubrizol.com/company/specifications/acea-on-highway/acea-2022/acea-e11-22
I see no reason for worries concerning foaming,aeration etc. of HDEO oils.
That’s a nice opinion, but very open ended.
Only a diesel rated to tow over 8600 lbs is deemed worthy of an HDEO?
By continuous load on equipment, should be handle it like we do electrical loads? Anything over 3 hours is deemed continuous? How did we pick 80%? Construction and earth moving equipment spends more time idling than at “80%” power output. A ~500 horse tracked tractor pulling a plow 24 hours a day for a week straight (weather permitting) definitely isn’t running at 80% either.
Hmmmm how many opinions are not open ended? I am no scientist, just giving my opinion on what i think.
Not only a diesel but any truck over 8600 is deemed not applicable to CAFE standards or emissions testing in many states, not my rule, just a fact. This might be one reason why GM (for example) specs 0w20 oil for the 6.2 gasser in the less than 8600# trucks, and 5w30 or greater in the trucks above. Of course, most do not use their trucks as intended, but that is not what we are talking about.
Tractors, excavators, generators, pumps, rock crushers, etc, are typically at full power (or RPM) all the time, or most of the time anyway. I am getting this 80% aprx load from datalogging while driving, and watching engine load in real time, under load.
Electrical motor loads? Maybe.....being that electrical motors are at 100% torque all the time, typically. But they dont typically use a recirculating oil that in contaminated by combustion either.
Some prior discussion here https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...latinum-5w40-a3-b4-in-my-diesel-truck.393456/
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