HDEO 5w-40 vs Porsche A40 in 911 3.4 - Oil Foaming

[Garak]

There are more Porshces here than you think, and the easiest A3/B4 oils to obtain in North America are M1 <span style="font-weight: bold">0w</span>-40 and Castrol <span style="font-weight: bold">0w</span>-40 A3/B4 and Castrol <span style="font-weight: bold">0w</span>-30, whether you're in Saskatoon, SK or Phoenix, AZ. But, I haven't used a lot of 0w-XX oils, though I certainly would.

 

[4WD]

Well, guy at work just bought the MD1 you run for $38/gallon - for his FF dump of a '17 PSD. Seems pretty expensive? Said he could no longer find TDT?

 

[1JZ_E46]

Originally Posted By: Garak

They do have an A3/B4 type 5w-40 up here from Mobil, but it's only sold in bulk. Shell needs to bring their 5w-40 as a 5 L or 5 quart container up here; I'm not completely afraid of an EcoBox, but most customers wouldn't even consider it. Castrol and Mobil brought the jugs in a while back already, after making us suffer with M1 0w-40 and GC 0w-30 in one litre bottles for ages. Selling your flagship A3/B4 product only in 1 L containers up here has Shell 5 years behind the times right now. They've concentrated on ILSAC viscosities for way, way too long and put way too much effort into them.

What was the idea/purpose of the ecoboxes anyways? Was it purely just for some touchy-feely environmentally friendly reason? 5qt. jugs seem like the way to go.

 

[BufordTJustice]

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46

Sounds like a plan! I'd also consider M1 turbo diesel truck. Lot's of people love it. It's $6 more per gallon at Walmart, so not too bad, and I would venture to say that means it is higher quality (I imagine walmart's margins on motor oil are all about the same).

That is certainly on the list. Like Delo 400 5w-40, M1 TDT is still only CJ rated (which means it has much higher levels of zinc). RT6 has been neutered, for my uses, by going CK-4. I'm sure it's fine as a pure HDEO, but it's out of contention for my uses. I now have 2 5qt jugs of Mobil 1 15w-50. The NOAA data states it is 93 degrees in Orlando right now, but the weather station at my lab building states it is 98 degrees F, with the heat index being 108. Tarmac temp in my parking lot is 139. Despite my 911 being water cooled, I find it to be directly impacted by high ambient temps (even with a properly functioning and recently serviced cooling system, low temp thermostat, clean rads, and two bottles of RP Purple Ice in the cooling system). Oil temp leads coolant temp by roughly 5-10 degrees F when moving and up to 30 degrees when stuck in traffic, mid-day. Worst case, I can step down to M1 TDT or Delo 400 LE 5w-40. I considered mixing 4 quarts of Mobil 1 10w-40 HM with 5 quarts of M1 15w-50, but my judgment got he better of me. I'm sure it would be fine, but two different product lines with potentially two different add packs didn't give me warm fuzzies.

Originally Posted By: Garak

I agree. Our store, Canadian Tire, has Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5w-40. As you know, it's in 1 quart bottles. Them having only two of them in stock is worse than useless.

If I had that in 5 qt jugs, I would never had done this research, or made this thread. No lie. Yep. 2 quarts is akin to somebody giving you two drops of water when you're dehydrated. JUST KEEP 'EM!

 

[1JZ_E46]

Originally Posted By: BufordTJustice

That is certainly on the list. Like Delo 400 5w-40, M1 TDT is still only CJ rated (which means it has much higher levels of zinc). RT6 has been neutered, for my uses, by going CK-4. I'm sure it's fine as a pure HDEO, but it's out of contention for my uses. I now have 2 5qt jugs of Mobil 1 15w-50. The NOAA data states it is 93 degrees in Orlando right now, but the weather station at my lab building states it is 98 degrees F, with the heat index being 108. Tarmac temp in my parking lot is 139. Despite my 911 being water cooled, I find it to be directly impacted by high ambient temps (even with a properly functioning and recently serviced cooling system, low temp thermostat, clean rads, and two bottles of RP Purple Ice in the cooling system). Oil temp leads coolant temp by roughly 5-10 degrees F when moving and up to 30 degrees when stuck in traffic, mid-day. Worst case, I can step down to M1 TDT or Delo 400 LE 5w-40. I considered mixing 4 quarts of Mobil 1 10w-40 HM with 5 quarts of M1 15w-50, but my judgment got he better of me. I'm sure it would be fine, but two different product lines with potentially two different add packs didn't give me warm fuzzies.

Please report back! And good call on not mixing. Probably would have been fine, but might as well give it a shot with the "full-strength" 15W-50 fill first. You can always go down in viscosity from. BTW, what's the oil capacity on that engine?

 

[BufordTJustice]

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46

Please report back! And good call on not mixing. Probably would have been fine, but might as well give it a shot with the "full-strength" 15W-50 fill first. You can always go down in viscosity from. BTW, what's the oil capacity on that engine?

Will do. It took roughly 9.4 quarts to read full on the dipstick, with the engine at operating temp (but off). Quite large for a quasi-dry-sump "Integrated dry sump" engine of its displacement. It's basically just a very large wet-sump with up-sized scavenge pumps in the heads; the sump is just cast into the block. I suspect that is why more issues are not had in the short term using lighter oils, because the sump capacity is so large. Folks who go racing typically will install modified baffling in the oil sump, and/or larger sumps (.5qt and 2 qt models seem to be most common). Dry sump conversions for mom-turbo 996's are rare, even for cars that are raced, and seem to be unnecessary with heavier engine oils, proper baffling, proper oil selection, and a low temp thermostat. Oil starvation in the middle of long, sweeping corners has been noted, but the modified oil baffles seem to alleviate this issue greatly. The problem is much more common in 986 boxsters (which have smaller sumps, IIRC). The deeper oil sumps hang dangerously low for street cars and the 2qt sumps make straddling the curbing on a track a serious no-no....the kind of no-no that will require a wrecker.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46

What was the idea/purpose of the ecoboxes anyways? Was it purely just for some touchy-feely environmentally friendly reason? 5qt. jugs seem like the way to go.

I guess they're supposed to be handy for shops; that's the target market, anyhow. 4WD: Yes, that's an expensive price. Even the Delvac 1 LE 5w-30, which has recently gone up, isn't that much up here. When it comes to TDT, good question. Imperial Oil here doesn't have it on my sell sheets, but I can get it from places like WM or CT, but they want a lot more than $38 a jug. BufordTJustice: A 5 L or 5 quart jug would make things so much simpler. Selling individual quarts when European sumps are historically larger isn't exactly helpful.

 

[BufordTJustice]

Originally Posted By: Garak

BufordTJustice: A 5 L or 5 quart jug would make things so much simpler. Selling individual quarts when European sumps are historically larger isn't exactly helpful.

Agreed, especially in light of the bolded part of your post above. I did a thing and dumped the Castrol Edge 0w-40 and put in Mobil 1 15w-50 with one can of LiquiMoly MOS2 (300ml?). I did not change the Fram Ultra 3675 (absolutely no need as this engine is pretty clean). Immediate improvement in smoothness at all RPMs. I let it idle up to temp as I cleaned the garage and filled the oil recycling container with the drain pan contents....which happened just as fast as normal, possibly even quicker. I suspect a lot of owners set the oil level incorrectly as the M96 in the 996 is to be set with the engine at full operating temp, but off. Not cold, as most other vehicles I've owned. I could only take it for a spin around the 'hood with the OBDII BT data logger, and it was 98 degrees again today, but no VarioCam errors. I was watching heavy lightning not far off and had a thunderhead looming over me like the sword of Damocles....not a good mix with my Pirelli PZero Assimetrico rear tires without about a golfball-dimple's worth of tread depth left. I dared not tempt fate, so I garaged it before the heavens opened up. Impressions: I like it better so far. Engine is much closer to turbine smooth even than before. No discernible difference in willingness to rev. I'm sure I've donated 2 or 3 HP at 7k rpm to the viscosity gods, but I'm OKAY with that. Hot idle oil pressure has risen from 1.0-1.1 bar to 1.5 bar. Hot pressure at 3k rpm is now about 4.4 bar (up from 3 bar). Excellent. OP relief valve doesn't open until past 8 bar, though the OP gauge does top out at 5 bar. I'd say it's the same difference/improvement in smoothness from when I replaced both engine mounts. Very pleased so far. Next fill will be with Delo 40 LE full syn 5w-40, with a Blackstone labs analysis coming off of this 15w-50 OCI and one to follow on the Delo OCI. More impressions to come in the future. Planning on putting over 100 miles on the 911 tomorrow and will report back.

 

[Garak]

Occasionally, that store Canadian Tire, will have a special of just over $6 a quart on the product. If you can only buy two or three, it sure is helpful, right?

 

[1JZ_E46]

Glad to hear your M96 is running well on the 15W-50! Now let's hope that vario-cam code stays off I'm actually considering using 15W-50 in my drift car. For how often the oil needs to be changed (E85), it's probably worth it over the Royal Purple.

 

[wings&wheels]

I've used M115w-50 (and the occasional M1 5w-50) for years in our 996 and have never had a problem. I made the same observations as you on the noise and oil pressure on the 15W; the engine is noticeably quieter on startup as opposed to with the 5w. I am currently using the M1 5W-50 in the Boxster S. Both vehicles' manuals allow synthetic 15W-50 for 'mostly above 50dg' or some similar language, so I cannot see any problem w/ that weight in mild weather. Nice car, enjoy.

 

[BufordTJustice]

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46

Glad to hear your M96 is running well on the 15W-50! Now let's hope that vario-cam code stays off I'm actually considering using 15W-50 in my drift car. For how often the oil needs to be changed (E85), it's probably worth it over the Royal Purple.

So far, so good. I cannot emphasize enough how much more smoothly the engine runs. Curiously, and this may be placebo effect, but part throttle response below 4k rpm feels stronger. And the difference does not seem subtle. Even more curiously, oil and coolant temps are down 3 and 4 degrees C, respectively. Same ambient temp...same roads....same driving style. In fact, I am fairly certain I was hitting it harder on the 15w-50 runs than when Edge 0w-40 was in there. Multiple outings now. We'll see if the trend holds. But, for Florida summer use (thermometer says 97 degrees right now, though area temps are supposedly lower), I'm not sure there's a better oil for anywhere near the price of this stuff. Delo 40 LE Full syn 5w-40 will go in next OCI for the colder(ish) months. In FL, morning temps can dip into the 30's for a few weeks during "winter". But it never got below 80 degrees at my house last night.... even just before sunrise.

Originally Posted By: wings&wheels

I've used M115w-50 (and the occasional M1 5w-50) for years in our 996 and have never had a problem. I made the same observations as you on the noise and oil pressure on the 15W; the engine is noticeably quieter on startup as opposed to with the 5w. I am currently using the M1 5W-50 in the Boxster S. Both vehicles' manuals allow synthetic 15W-50 for 'mostly above 50dg' or some similar language, so I cannot see any problem w/ that weight in mild weather. Nice car, enjoy.

Excellent info and our experiences seem to correlate and corroborate. Did you find that the engine had any more difficulty in revving (say, during down shifts)? I am quite sensitive to that and I have not detected a difference when heel-toeing. If the 5w-50 were available for $22 in a 5 quart jug, I definitely would have started with that first. But, the 15w-50 was the logical first trial. I'm HUGE on letting the car get up to temp (including the oil, which trails coolant temp until about 90 degrees C on my car) before any hooning occurs. I'm just adamant about it...in every car I drive. The issues that others may have reported seem, at this point, to be related to the injudicious application of the loud pedal before proper warm up has occurred. I should reiterate that I have upgraded the awful factory oil filter element with an LN Engineering screw-on oil filter adapter that permits the use of the same screw-on Fram Ultra 3675 that the LS V8 motors use. It lacks a bypass valve (everything I can find with this thread pattern and base plate diameter does), but does have an ADBV. This can only help the situation. The OEM or equivalent filters are only supplied by Mann, Hengst, Bosch, and a few others....and I haven't been able to find any reliable data on filtration efficiency for any of them. Fram Ultras have been stated to be 80% down to 5 microns (Motorking, here on BITOG). I have read of (and seen photos of) nearly new OEM paper cartridges getting crushed when using 15w-50. In fact, that was the only concrete argument I have seen against the use of M1 15w-50. Considering my experiences so far, and the use of a screw-on Fram Ultra, I just don't see this being an issue.

 

[1JZ_E46]

Interesting, no bypass valve... Does the oil filter housing have one internally? Is you oil pressure sensor before or after the oil filter? Cars that use oil filters with no bypass valve usually have one built in to the filter housing. Without one, you run the risk of over-pressurizing the filter media and losing pressure post-oil filter.

 

[1JZ_E46]

I would cut open your oil filter during your next oil change to ensure the filter media hasn't collapsed. 15W-50 plus no bypass valve sounds scary to me!

 

[BufordTJustice]

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46

Interesting, no bypass valve... Does the oil filter housing have one internally? Is you oil pressure sensor before or after the oil filter? Cars that use oil filters with no bypass valve usually have one built in to the filter housing. Without one, you run the risk of over-pressurizing the filter media and losing pressure post-oil filter.

From what I can see, no. I'll have to pull up the lubrication diagrams for the M96 to answer whether the sensor is before or after. I believe after, if memory serves, but don't quote me. I'll advise. This is the same size-format filter that gets run on LS7's, using 15w-50 for track duty, so I'm not terribly worried. If the Fram filter column collapses, I'll be able to see that, aside from collapsed individual pleats, without cutting the filter, no? Several race teams use this adapter with paper media filters from WIX without issue, running 5w-40, 5w-50, and 15w-50. I wil keep an eye on it. Frankly, I see this as an oversight by the folks at LN Engineering. Simply ZERO reason to fit a filter without a bypass valve when they could have picked any thread pattern, and any filter less 3.5" in diameter, 4" or less in height. They state that they made this decision intentionally, but I immediately identified it as a mistake. Regardless, I don't think it will be an issue, as many are in street and track use and there have been zro reports of collapsed screw-on filters...only the factory paper cartridges.

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46

I would cut open your oil filter during your next oil change to ensure the filter media hasn't collapsed. 15W-50 plus no bypass valve sounds scary to me!

I plan on cutting it anyway....so, yeah. I'm gonna check. It's a pretty clean engine.

 

[1JZ_E46]

Sounds good. And although it's the same filter run on LS7s, they have a built in bypass valve... I would imagine somewhere around 15-25 PSI (delta pressure). Either way, just keep an eye on it. I've seen collapsed filter media in the event the bypass valve gets stuck closed on certain engines. And I agree, about the thread size oversight. 3/4-16 would have been a good choice, as they have a filter nearly the same exact size with a built in bypass valve (XG3600). I run it on my Toyota inline 6.

 

[wings&wheels]

"Did you find that the engine had any more difficulty in revving (say, during down shifts)? I am quite sensitive to that and I have not detected a difference when heel-toeing." Hi, I did not notice any other differences between the 5w- and 15w- aside from startup noise. The one second or so of chain clatter on startup is almost completely absent w/ the heavier oil. Oddly, the Boxster S, also w/ just under 50k miles, is much quieter on start. Both have had the IMS retrofit done. The 996 does show very, very small amounts of chain guide material in the oil filter, well within tolerable for now per the indy Porsche folks I use, and this seemed to lessen to almost nothing on the 15W-, but I wont make a statement either way based on one or two anecdotal observations.

 

[BufordTJustice]

Have done about 1k miles on the 100% Mobil-1 15w-50. It is REALLY smooth when the engine is full hot. Like, "forget to shift into 6th" when cruising, smooth. However, the oil does indeed take a while to get up to temp even in 95 F temps. No bad noises other than 1 (literal) second of very faint tick upon a dead-cold startup. Until the oil gets up to temp and oil pressure normalizes, the engine does feel slightly more sluggish now. The difference in the engine's ability to rev when cold is so subtle, that even the previous owner (who remains a good friend and put 13k miles on the car) couldn't discern the slight sluggishness at all....but they did immediately latch onto the additional smoothness. Still, next OCI will be straight Chevron Delo 400 XLE 5w-40 (HTHS of 4.0 or higher, as far as I can tell). After that will be a 50/50 mix of M1 15w-50 and M1 FS 0w-40. Fram Ultra filter is working great.

 

[1JZ_E46]

Thanks for the update. Glad it's working out for you.

 

[RooflessVW]

Following this thread - I just bought an '03 C2. Right now I'm running the last of my Castrol 0W-40 and Castrol Syntrax 75W-90 on a short OCI as a baseline and to get to an even mileage. I have Mobil 1 FS X2 5W-50 and Mobil Delvac 1 75W-90 ready and waiting. I was planning on running Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 ESP as a year round oil, but now I may consider using 15W-50. Also planning on running the LN spin-on adapter with an M1-107 filter starting next OCI.