HDEO 5w-40 vs Porsche A40 in 911 3.4 - Oil Foaming

[4WD]

Enough has been said on motor oil in this thread - but the Delvac 1 gear oil carries some serious pedigree even when this site is obsessed with two other premium gear oils that can't be bothered with owner approval ...

 

[BufordTJustice]

Originally Posted By: rooflessVW

Following this thread - I just bought an '03 C2. Right now I'm running the last of my Castrol 0W-40 and Castrol Syntrax 75W-90 on a short OCI as a baseline and to get to an even mileage. I have Mobil 1 FS X2 5W-50 and Mobil Delvac 1 75W-90 ready and waiting. I was planning on running Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 ESP as a year round oil, but now I may consider using 15W-50. Also planning on running the LN spin-on adapter with an M1-107 filter starting next OCI.

Congrats! The LN Filter adapter is mandatory, IMHO. For the sole reason that you can fit a Fram Ultra. I'm running Mobil Delvac-1 75w-90 in the 6-speed transaxle with some Lubeguard HD Gear Protectant in the mix. The Delvac is what is used by the race teams and is factory fill for the 996 GT3 according to several knowledgeable and connected people to which I've spoken. It smoothed the transmission quite a bit. Just so we're clear, make sure and do not use gear oil in the crankcase. The additive pack is not good for use inside the engine. As for oils, I'm still hopeful that the Delo 400 5w-40 will be a smooth runner. I was truly disappointed in the M1 0w-40. Lots of valve noise, engine ran more roughly at higher RPM. The Castrol 0w-40 was an improvement, but still too rough. I'm also researching IMS stuff and a recently discovered issue is that some of the reasons behind why the bearing can fail may be due to IMS shaft wobble, due to a too-thin MOFT in the front bearing, which is a fluid bearing. The take is that this permits an orbital, eccentric, almost helical kind of shaft movement as oil film thickness deteriorates. Naturally, a higher HTHS oil will provide a more robust film inside the front bearing of the IMS shaft, reducing this tendency. Been speaking with a few local shops where even some of the "fixes" (non LN) have failed shortly after install. All of the failures that I've learned about were using Mobil-1 0w-40. Now, correlation does NOT equal causation, but I know my M96 runs smoother on thicker oil. Seeing Doug Hillary's comments on Porsche using HDEO 15w-40 as factory fill for decades prior to the 1990's (with HTHS figures likely near 5) only reinforces this notion, as the Metzger motor is more stoutly built than the M96. While the 15w rating may cause VarioCam errors in cold weather...I haven't seen them with 15w-50 yet. However, I should note that running 100% 15w-50 is probably now overkill for me because I have a low temp thermostat and have recently wrapped the headers from cylinder to merge collector with DEI Titanium heat wrap and this has greatly reduced my cylinder head temps. After doing that, it now takes FOREVER for the oil to get up to temp even in 98+ degree ambient temps. I'll clearly define "forever "as longer than 20 minutes of actual driving. Still no VarioCam errors, but I'm gonna ditch straight 15w-50 for the fall. So, for those with std thermostats and non-wrapped headers, I think straight 15w-50 will be more beneficial in hot weather.

 

[BufordTJustice]

Originally Posted By: 4WD

Enough has been said on motor oil in this thread - but the Delvac 1 gear oil carries some serious pedigree even when this site is obsessed with two other premium gear oils that can't be bothered with owner approval ...

+1 As I stated in my above post, it's excellent gear oil and it's reported to be factory fill in the GT3 cars and std practice for use with the Cup teams. I am using it currently and it is very smooth. With the 911 having a transaxle, I'd imagine the oil takes more of a beating because it is pulling double duty for both the ring/pinion and the gearbox.

 

[Dyusik]

T6 does not foam. 15k RPM red line, 6 speed gearbox churning the same oil. In FL, why not just a 15w40 HDEO?

 

[BufordTJustice]

Originally Posted By: Dyusik

T6 does not foam. 15k RPM red line, 6 speed gearbox churning the same oil.

That is good to have confirmed again. I met another guy in my neighborhood who uses T6 in his bike as well and he reported the same. With the vastly smaller oil sumps and 15k+ RPM redlines your bikes have, if oil foaming were an issue, much wouold have been said by now. I am leaning really strongly to the reports of oil foaming in the Porsche M96 while using 5w-40 HDEOs (specifically RT6) to be due to a malfunctioning AOS or a gross overfill where the crank counterweights whip the oil into bubble-bath foam. No other explanation. I mean, no foam at 15k RPM....I just can't see foaming being an issue for my 7400 RPM redlined engine.

Originally Posted By: Dyusik

In FL, why not just a 15w40 HDEO?

Well, considering my observations below, I suspect a HDEO 15w-40 would be too thick for cooler temps, a full syn oil is necessary and a full syn 15w-40 is far more expensive than the full syn 5w-40 HDEOs one can get at Walmart. OIL UPDATE: Drove another 800 miles for a total of 1.8k on the Mobil-1 15w-50. Have now switched to Chevron Delo 5w-40. Have about 200 miles on the Delo and I've made an interesting observation....hot idle oil pressure reads 1.2-1.3 BAR, almost identical to the 15w-50 at 1.1-1.2 BAR. Hot pressure at 3k rpm in 6th gear is also slightly higher with the Delo (~4.1 BAR over ~3.9-4.0 BAR). I don't think the Mobil 15w-50 had time to shear and the OP readings were consistent from first fill. Weather has been HOT (tarmac temps regularly getting over 140 F and ambient reaching into the 100's). I'm going to guess that HTHS factors heavily into oil performance and observed oil pressure (as Shannow and many others have said), and possibly more so than the std kinematic oil weights. The even more curious observation is that the engine revs more freely with the Delo 5w-40, yet it has equal or higher OP values and is essentially just as smooth as with the 15w-50 (and still notably smoother than the 0w-40 oils). I'm pleasantly surprised. NOTE: Not a single VarioCam error seen while using Mobil 15w-50. However, clearly the HTHS of Delo is (delightfully) high for a 5w-40 rated oil....and I can now see why Porsche doesn't rec a 15w-40 because, if their HTHS ratings are equally high, anything but a full syn 15w-40 would likely be too thick for the VarioCam system in cooler temps. The cheaper availability of full syn 5w-40 HDEOs is clearly the value sweet spot for added M96 protection. For posterity, I am using the Chevron Delo 400 LE 5w-40 Full Syn CJ-4/API SN rated HDEO in 4 quart jugs from Walmart.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi BufordTJustice; you said this: NOTE: Not a single VarioCam error seen while using Mobil 15w-50. However, clearly the HTHS of Delo is (delightfully) high for a 5w-40 rated oil....and I can now see why Porsche doesn't rec a 15w-40 because, if their HTHS ratings are equally high, anything but a full syn 15w-40 would likely be too thick for the VarioCam system in cooler temps. The cheaper availability of full syn 5w-40 HDEOs is clearly the value sweet spot for added M96 protection. Yes, and one reason why M1 has a 5W-50 version that has been on the Porsche List for many years And for non believers even the 356 range had a HD (HDEO) as FF - air-cooled and all

 

[BufordTJustice]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary

Hi BufordTJustice; you said this: NOTE: Not a single VarioCam error seen while using Mobil 15w-50. However, clearly the HTHS of Delo is (delightfully) high for a 5w-40 rated oil....and I can now see why Porsche doesn't rec a 15w-40 because, if their HTHS ratings are equally high, anything but a full syn 15w-40 would likely be too thick for the VarioCam system in cooler temps. The cheaper availability of full syn 5w-40 HDEOs is clearly the value sweet spot for added M96 protection. Yes, and one reason why M1 has a 5W-50 version that has been on the Porsche List for many years And for non believers even the 356 range had a HD (HDEO) as FF - air-cooled and all

Doug! Thank you for chiming in!!! I have many of your posts not just bookmarked, but cut-and-pasted into a few text files for quick access. I put another 300 miles on my M96 motor this weekend. Despite the crushing post-Irma Central FL heat (ambient exceeding 96 F and tarmac temps above 140F according to my IR thermometer), and my spirited driving, I can confidently say that the engine has never run better. A question, if you don't mind: I'm considering the various IMS solution options, including one that transitions the rear IMS flange into a fluid bearing setup by a company I'm sure you've heard of. However, if I select that option, the company demands that, in order to maintain warranty coverage, Joe Gibbs DT40 oil MUST be used....end of discussion. Can you opine on why this may be? Your opinion of DT40 vs HDEO 5w-40 syn options (like Delo, Delvac, and Rotella T6)? What should I make of this requirement?

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi, BufordTJustice - it would help to know the structure of the lubricant? As we know there are no "magic" lubricants but there will be similar or perhaps even better products I know what IRMA must have been like - we had Cyclone Debbie here earlier this year. The damage both physical and via Trauma has been unbelievable. We are just about to commence a $1m rectification job over 95 days here where I live! This is quite typical of places here in the Whitsundays on the edge of the Great Barrier Reef. It will take years for those that can to recover

 

[BufordTJustice]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary

Hi, BufordTJustice - it would help to know the structure of the lubricant? As we know there are no "magic" lubricants but there will be similar or perhaps even better products I know what IRMA must have been like - we had Cyclone Debbie here earlier this year. The damage both physical and via Trauma has been unbelievable. We are just about to commence a $1m rectification job over 95 days here where I live! This is quite typical of places here in the Whitsundays on the edge of the Great Barrier Reef. It will take years for those that can to recover

Doug, here are the stats provided by LN Engineering for JG DT40. It has a notably lower HTHS than an HDEO 5w-40 like Delvac, Rotella T6, or Delo XLE. It's advertised as having "High ZDDP levels". Not sure what number "high" correlates to. Regardless, to use the LNE fluid-bearing "Solution" for the IMS, LNE mandates JG DT40. Which, in my quasi educated opinion, needlessly excludes the HDEO 5w-40's listed above that would be even better suited to the task, and seems to railroad folks into using a potentially sub-par oil (but possibly passable, as well) that is twice as expensive as RT6 or Delo at $130/12 quarts. I change the oil in my 996 3.4 at 2k miles or every year, whichever comes first. At RT6 prices here in the US (2.5 gals is $60 before the current $12.50 mail in rebate from Shell), I can easily afford to keep this up. DT40 prices just seem needlessly high. So, with that background, am I going to be forced into an inferior oil (as compared to RT6, Delo, Delvac 1, etc.) in JG DT40 just to get a superior IMS Solution? ************** Yes, these storms cause some much disruption to daily life. Every little thing is affected; the coffee place you frequent, having a warm shower and cold water, counting on one's roof to NOT leak, etc.

 

[RooflessVW]

The IMS solution warranty is only 5 years, and they "recommend" Joe Gibbs DT40 or XP9 but it is not "required." IMS Solution Warranty In any case, do you believe in the product their selling or the warranty?

 

[BufordTJustice]

Originally Posted By: rooflessVW

The IMS solution warranty is only 5 years, and they "recommend" Joe Gibbs DT40 or XP9 but it is not "required." IMS Solution Warranty In any case, do you believe in the product their selling or the warranty?

That is in direct contradiction to what the Jake and Charles at LNE have stated on Pelican Parts, Rennlist, RennTech, and other forums that their warranty would demand the use of JG DT40. I see they have revised their language....which is EXCELLENT news. Thank you for digging that up, rooflessVW.

 

[RooflessVW]

Hey no problem. I've been toying with the idea of doing my IMS as well with either the IMS Solution or the Eternal IMS. Mine was done about 30k ago with the updated Porsche part.

 

[BufordTJustice]

Originally Posted By: rooflessVW

Hey no problem. I've been toying with the idea of doing my IMS as well with either the IMS Solution or the Eternal IMS. Mine was done about 30k ago with the updated Porsche part.

I like the LNE Solution (fluid bearing) except for both the ridiculous price AND the fact that only a small number of service places in Central FL/ South FL are permitted to install the LNE kit...and they ALL charge outrageous rates. Install of the LNE Solution kit has been repeatedly quoted as $5000+ including the kit. That doesn't include a clutch/pressure plate service, either. And LNE won't sell to anybody but their installer network. So other options like the EPS cylindrical roller bearing (with fore/aft thrust control) start to make more sense at 1/3rd the price plus I can select my shop. I'm not a huge fan of the manner in which the EPS kit floods the bore of the entire Intermediate Shaft with oil in order to supply lube to the bearing at the back, however. I would feel better with more installations of that kit being on record. Decisions, decisions. My engine is an early 99 double row with an excellent service history....I'm watching closely but am going to try and wait until the 70k clutch/pressure plate service to have the IMS done.

 

[BufordTJustice]

Oil update: Went 2200 miles on the Delo 5w-40 XLE Syn. Changed oil and filter to Mobil Delvac-1 5w-40 ESP (CJ-4), Fram Ultra XG3675. Oil pressure observations made above about Delo also apply to the Delvac. However, smoother still. My first use of Delvac 5w-40 ESP CJ-4, but I see why it costs more than TDT, RT6, and Delo. It seems to come up to temp faster (as judged by the OP gauge settling to normal ranges at idle and at 3k rpm in 4th gear) than Delo 5w-40. Already have 230-ish miles on the Delvac. There was an ever-so-slight increase in the amount of ferrous sludge on the magnetic LNE drain plug in Delo over 15w-50, but I drove the car harder during the Delo run than with the M1 15w-50 (which was mostly highway cruising and some stop-and-go traffic). So, it's not a scientific comparison. On all three heavier oils, I'm hearing and feeling noticeably less "buzz" at higher RPMs than on the 0w-40 oils. Though, to Castrol's credit, I did not have the low temp thermostat installed when I did my run of 0w-40 Castrol Edge black bottle. Nearly 25 degrees F lower coolant and oil temps when in traffic and hauling-the-mail would have had an obvious effect on KV. IMHO, there is no reason to use the factory OEM filter when a Fram Ultra, Amsoil EaO, WIX XP, Napa Platinum, or Royal Purple option exists.

 

[toy4two2]

Just put the new Delo 400 XSP 5W-40 in my 2007 Porsche Cayman S will post up UOA vs the Joe Gibbs DT40 I ran previously in 5-6000 miles

 

[RooflessVW]

I had a 25% discount at Walmart and went a bit overboard, so in addition to the 12qts of Mobil 1 FS X2 5W-50 I had waiting in the wings, I now have 10qts each of Pennzoil Platinum Euro 0W-40 and Mobil 1 FS 0W-40. With my use, it'll be a year and a half before I need to buy any more oil. But THEN I'll be going to Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40. LOL

 

[BufordTJustice]

28 degree F "cold start" on the Delvac 5w-40 ESP occurred without drama a few days ago. Just a data point.

 

[Garak]

I've had good starts with similar weather this year, many hours outside, unaided.

 

[wings&wheels]

Originally Posted By: wings&wheels

"Did you find that the engine had any more difficulty in revving (say, during down shifts)? I am quite sensitive to that and I have not detected a difference when heel-toeing." Hi, I did not notice any other differences between the 5w- and 15w- aside from startup noise. The one second or so of chain clatter on startup is almost completely absent w/ the heavier oil. Oddly, the Boxster S, also w/ just under 50k miles, is much quieter on start. Both have had the IMS retrofit done. The 996 does show very, very small amounts of chain guide material in the oil filter, well within tolerable for now per the indy Porsche folks I use, and this seemed to lessen to almost nothing on the 15W-, but I wont make a statement either way based on one or two anecdotal observations.

An update from my most recent oil change w/ 15w-50; there was also almost no chain guide material in the filter making this the fourth in a row where I have observed a reduction in this material vs. prior oil changes w/ either M1ow-0 or Redline 10w-40. Granted this is a purely anecdotal, unscientific and small sample series of observations, but I will stick w/ the 15W-50 for this car.

 

[wings&wheels]

meant "M1 0w-40"