Dieselgate Is An Industry Problem ? Absolutely !

[supton]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
If you guys ever saw the smog in LA basin 30-40 years ago you will appreciate the clean air in So Cal we have now.

The clean air we have now was the result of hard works by EPA and CARB. Otherwise, we would have the same air quality as Chinese people have in Beijing and other big cities in China.


No denying that. But since the air is now clean in what is perhaps the worst environmental location (LA is a basin so emissions tend to linger), then do we need to reduce emissions even further? [Vehicle emissions at least. Plenty of other emissions sources exist.]

If LA was that clean 10 years ago, do we need today's tighter limits? Or have we reached a "good enough" point?

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: Vern_in_IL
Originally Posted By: surfstar
Or we could move all the polluting industries to your state? Would you like that?

It costs money to comply with any regs, but it can be done. Some businesses choose to leave instead. Others find a way to stay and profit. Clean air and water should be a fundamental right.

Not sure about an industry that does not pollute, but the biggest polluter is animal agriculture. Would you like us to move all the Turkey and Hog operations adjacent to your home?

The EPA does not eliminate pollution, it merely manages/regulates it. Lie to me some more, this is fun.

EPA and CARB did not eliminate pollution, they regulates emission from various sources: vehicles of all types, factories ...

Yes, we paid higher price for special formulated gasoline to reduce smog, and it did show result.

This is a typical day in Los Angeles in 1970, do you like to live in a city with this level of pollution ?

This was Los Angeles in 1970's viewed from the air

Los Angeles today

Are you sure those pictures are "typical" days in LA in the 1970's? I've seen plenty of TV shows and movies that were filmed in LA in the 1970's, and the air was much clearer than in those photos. Most of what you see there is fog. And the yellow tinge in the first photo was because it was taken at sunrise or sunset.

I vacationed in the LA area in 2009, and the atmosphere looked like the old photos in the morning, then when the fog lifted, it looked like the new photo.

 

[surfstar]

That ain't fog.

Also, think about TV shows - they're not going to use stock / b-roll footage of a smoggy LA skyline unless that fits the script. They would run something with clear skies.


There is still plenty of smog visible, especially when you head up to the mountains and see it from above, Big Bear or Idlywild areas will be clear and you'll see all the haze below. Not fog (marine layer) but lingering smog.

 

[KrisZ]

I do not think anybody has suggested to remove all EPA and CARB regulation and go to the pre-regulation days. Why bring in the strawmen with the pictures from the 70s and today? How about some pictures from 10 years ago and today?

Fact is that the EPA and CARB have totally outlived their usefulness and should be relegated to monitoring duty. They became a self feeding monster or a parasite that will do whatever it takes to justify its existence and continue to receive funding, like pumping raw diesel exhaust gasses into the lungs of children and homeless people without full disclosure.

 

[HTSS_TR]

When I was driving from San Diego back to Orange County on I5 North mid 70's, at around San Juan Capistrano about 50-60 miles from LA I could see a giant brown dome about 1 mile high covered LA, the dome was a little lighter by late 90's, and keep getting light every few years.

People who live in LA area(even in Orange County about 40-60 miles south of LA) more than 20-30 years can tell you how terrible the smog was before 1990.

The main problem is LA is a basin, the smog linger in the basin even they have good breeze in the afternoon from Pacific Ocean, but the mountains on the North and East keep the smog in.

The only time we can see true blue sky is after a good rain, other days are a little brown. Farther south around San Clemente all the way to San Diego we have cleaner sky.

PS Do you guys know where Californians spent their vacation ? Hawaii !

Why Hawaii when we have miles and miles of beach within 20-30 minutes drive ? Because we like the clean air of Hawaii.

The minute I had my feet on Hawaii ground I can felt the air I breath in my lungs. Every morning I went outside just to breath the air, within a day or two all my sneezing, coughing ... was gone. Within a week or two back to CA I had the same problem again.

 

[surfstar]

The LA basin, San Joaquin Valley, SLC (winter inversion) are just a few that I can easily think of that do not meet federal air standards on a routine basis.

I'll take my clean air and high mpg cars that were "forced" down our throats. Capitalism isn't perfect. There is no monetary gain to provide a consumer with a product that is better for the environment. Regulatory agencies need to exist.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
I do not think anybody has suggested to remove all EPA and CARB regulation and go to the pre-regulation days. Why bring in the strawmen with the pictures from the 70s and today? How about some pictures from 10 years ago and today?

Fact is that the EPA and CARB have totally outlived their usefulness and should be relegated to monitoring duty. They became a self feeding monster or a parasite that will do whatever it takes to justify its existence and continue to receive funding, like pumping raw diesel exhaust gasses into the lungs of children and homeless people without full disclosure.


Exactly! We have definitely reached the point of diminishing returns, newer cars sometimes emit cleaner air than they ingested! Time to quit funding these agencies full of un-elected bureaucrats and their ridiculous salaries. We could get by with about 10-20% of the current load of spongers...

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
I do not think anybody has suggested to remove all EPA and CARB regulation and go to the pre-regulation days. Why bring in the strawmen with the pictures from the 70s and today? How about some pictures from 10 years ago and today?

Fact is that the EPA and CARB have totally outlived their usefulness and should be relegated to monitoring duty. They became a self feeding monster or a parasite that will do whatever it takes to justify its existence and continue to receive funding, like pumping raw diesel exhaust gasses into the lungs of children and homeless people without full disclosure.

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Exactly! We have definitely reached the point of diminishing returns, newer cars sometimes emit cleaner air than they ingested! Time to quit funding these agencies full of un-elected bureaucrats and their ridiculous salaries. We could get by with about 10-20% of the current load of spongers...

We should keep it that way or a little tougher regulations to clean up the air even better.

I don't know how long EPA will exit, but CARB is here to stay to keep the air we breath cleaner than we had some years ago, also the water we drink is not as contaminated as Flint's water.

 

[spackard]

Dieselgate - a year later
40 minute video is in English; slides are mostly English but some are in German.

Software Definied Emissions - A hacker's review of Dieselgate
60 minute video - An owner looks into what was done to his VW Sharan. And an Open/GM Zafira 1.6.
By Felix „tmbinc“ Domke.

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: Vern_in_IL
So where should the EPA CAFE stop?

I understand it is needed to prevent "city junk piles" and ground water contamination... but how far should it reach?

Shut down entire industries, force companies to hire lawyers to get around the fine print, or cheat like VW did?

The EPA needs to be defunded 90%


Why not actually change the laws that offend you, instead of hobbling the enforcement arm? That would pick winners and losers. And those who invested in the R&D to make a legal non-polluting car would wind up gypped.

 

[SeaJay]

No question in my mind that the air is definitely cleaner now than it was 40 years ago.

Also, no question that some of the country's most polluted rivers (Hudson, east river in NY to name a few) are also much cleaner than 40 years ago.

OTOH, the salt water bays on east end of long island are in worse shape with a lot of garbage and waste running into the bays because of the large increase in population, particularly along the waterfront.