Dieselgate Is An Industry Problem ? Absolutely !

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EU emission regulations is out of control, it has many loopholes and some of them are so big you can drive an 18 wheeler through it.
Originally Posted By: forbes.com
When dieselgate broke last September, automakers and auto writers the world over tried to paint it as an incident isolated to rogue Volkswagen. This reporter disagreed, stating that the problem was and is widespread through the industry. This of course did not earn the reporter popularity points. In one incident, I received thinly veiled threats of libel and slander, made by a bullying representative of Europe’s ACEA auto manufacturer association. Truth is the best defense against libel, they say, and the truth is coming out in spades.
Originally Posted By: forbes.com
This morning, “South Korea said that Nissan Motor Co Ltd had manipulated emissions on a diesel sport utility vehicle and that it planned to fine the automaker as well as sue the head of its Korean operations,” wrote Reuters. In April, Mitsubishi Motors admitted to manipulating fuel consumption data of its cars. The scandal led to the end of Mitsubishi’s independence. Last week, GM admitted to overstating the fuel consumption of some of its crossovers.
Originally Posted By: forbes.com
On Saturday, Germany’s Spiegel Magazin reported of a class action suit brought against Daimler AG, its CEO Dieter Zetsche, and its R&D chief Thomas Weber. The suit claims consumers were duped by Daimler’s claim that its “BlueTec cars are the world’s cleanest diesel.” Last week, Germany was rocked by serious allegations that GM’s European Opel arm is using a number of defeat devices in two of its diesel cars. Opel has been summoned to appear in front of an investigative committee of Germany’s Transport Ministry this week. Netherland’s RDW, the regulator that issued the EU type approval of Opel’s Zafira Diesel, is considering a recall, and possibly (but unlikely) a loss of the type approval, Germany’s ARD News says.
Originally Posted By: forbes.com
These short excerpts from my bulging dieselgate files should dispel any notions that Volkswagen is the sole villain, and that the rest of the auto industry is all saints. Allow me a few comments and amplifications to the above. According to the relevant EU rules, “the use of defeat devices that reduce the effectiveness of emission control systems shall be prohibited,” except in cases where automakers decide to use them. “The prohibition shall not apply,” say the rules, when “the need for the device is justified in terms of protecting the engine against damage or accident and for safe operation of the vehicle.” Carmakers make wide, and sometimes liberal use of this handy provision.
Originally Posted By: forbes.com
GM’s Opel arm admitted to doing just that. By sheer happenstance, EU specifications say that tests are to be performed at temperature between 20 and 30 centigrade, the only temperature band where Opel somewhat reliably keeps its emission controls running. Even that would not be illegal according to the generous EU rules. Opel is in hot water because it allegedly turned off emissions control in a number of other situations that don’t fit through generous EU loopholes. The International Council on Clean Transportation, the same group that made the Volkswagen dieselgate scandal public, just published a white paper that shows “vehicle manufacturers systematically exploiting technical tolerances and imprecise definitions in the procedures.” The ICCT’s study lists Opel’s Insignia and Astra, Volkswagen’s Passat, and Peugeot’s 207 as the leading test-lab beauticians (see chart.)
Originally Posted By: forbes.com
Interestingly, the most sensible approach to ending the ongoing dieselgate disasters come from Gaspar Gascon-Abellan, head of engineering at Nissan’s partner Renault. At the sidelines of the Beijing Auto Show, he told me that as long as the regulations are full of huge loopholes, one should not blame the industry for using them. “If we don’t, we’d simply cede our business to those who do,” Gascon-Abellan said. “We follow the loose rules now, to the letter. Make tight rules, and we will follow them again, to the letter.”
http://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschmit...m/#10ace722245e
 
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This is well known by tuners in Europe who take the loose MFG cars and step all over the rule book to get serious power and TQ for their customers. I suspect that the EU will tighten the regs a lot laugh
 
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The whole diesel emissions standard is a joke anyhow and makes the deisels less efficient, less reliable and more expensive to operate. Alot of big truck companies are going as far to find older pre emissions deisels and buying glider kits. Due to the problems with the new emission equipment. All that stuff usually gets deleted as soon as the warranty is up when they can. It's all a racket.
 
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Quote:
These short excerpts from my bulging dieselgate files should dispel any notions that Volkswagen is the sole villain, and that the rest of the auto industry is all saints. Allow me a few comments and amplifications to the above. According to the relevant EU rules, “the use of defeat devices that reduce the effectiveness of emission control systems shall be prohibited,” except in cases where automakers decide to use them. “The prohibition shall not apply,” say the rules, when “the need for the device is justified in terms of protecting the engine against damage or accident and for safe operation of the vehicle.” Carmakers make wide, and sometimes liberal use of this handy provision.
The biased tone and language are so heavy it could crush granite. There is nothing new, strange, or unusual about this, or anything else in this article. Of course the ECM is going to disable certain emissions functions and/or modify operations that will profoundly affect the fuel consumption of the engine. Just about any vehicle on the road will begin dumping fuel into the engine under a catalytic converter overheat situation, which is going to ramp up emissions and destroy fuel economy, easily. The new diesel emissions standards were developed based on faulty and unreliable technology. It's no surprise the industry is doing everything it can to get around it, just as customers are doing.
 
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So, the rules are lax over there. But VW goofed and didn't turn off that feature when it shipped to here. OEM's make the most of the rules anywhere, and it sounds like they can "legally" do that there, but VW goofed and did something illegal here. Sounds shady but taking advantage of any and all legal breaks is how business works.
 
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Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Did anyone really think VW was the only company guilty of this?
Exactly. I've mentioned before how the OEMs do what they can to skirt the rules (or cheat) in motorsports. Ironically, some of the same people are involved. One of the engineers involved in VW's diesel troubles has been bounced around the VW/Audi group's teams in the World Endurance Championship, as of late. You give people a goal to meet, and shortcuts will be taken.
 
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USA trucking engine maker had the same issue decade ago.the trouble was the test. It was a theoretical test with real world needed result. As soon as new Jersey began using said test,black smoke poured out of stack coming-out of the scale (with had just did the solution test and truck was clean. Yep theoretical test indeed. Imagine climbing. Which I'll fully loaded.
 
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EU emissions regulations are out of control? So are those of the USA and the rest of the world. The amounts of emissions that OEM's are being required to meet are so small that they are almost impossible to measure reliably. Pity the automaker that tries to engineer a global engine. It has to meet at least 6 different set of emissions standards, depending on which country it's going to be sold in.
 
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Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Quote:
These short excerpts from my bulging dieselgate files should dispel any notions that Volkswagen is the sole villain, and that the rest of the auto industry is all saints. Allow me a few comments and amplifications to the above. According to the relevant EU rules, “the use of defeat devices that reduce the effectiveness of emission control systems shall be prohibited,” except in cases where automakers decide to use them. “The prohibition shall not apply,” say the rules, when “the need for the device is justified in terms of protecting the engine against damage or accident and for safe operation of the vehicle.” Carmakers make wide, and sometimes liberal use of this handy provision.
Just about any vehicle on the road will begin dumping fuel into the engine under a catalytic converter overheat situation, which is going to ramp up emissions and destroy fuel economy, easily.
Actually it would be just the opposite. If the diesel oxidation catalyst were to start overheating, or the particulate filter started to overheat during a regeneration cycle, the diesel engine would STOP dumping excess fuel into the cycle. In a diesel, excess fuel is either injected late in the combustion process, or in the exhaust stream to INCREASE DOC or PF temperatures. The purpose of the DOC is to burn excess hydrocarbons and produce heat in the process!
 
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So where should the EPA CAFE stop? I understand it is needed to prevent "city junk piles" and ground water contamination... but how far should it reach? Shut down entire industries, force companies to hire lawyers to get around the fine print, or cheat like VW did? The EPA needs to be defunded 90%
 

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If you guys ever saw the smog in LA basin 30-40 years ago you will appreciate the clean air in So Cal we have now. The clean air we have now was the result of hard works by EPA and CARB. Otherwise, we would have the same air quality as Chinese people have in Beijing and other big cities in China.
 
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I think that until the past decade the emissions regulations have been very beneficial, but those standards imposed during the recent ten years offer very little improvement, and the rule of diminishing returns definitely applies here.... Now you have additives like DEF and extra manufacturing steps added to production that end up adding to environmental damage and wasted energy during production versus the previous simpler items...FEW folks think of this aspect of things.
 
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Originally Posted By: Vern_in_IL
So where should the EPA CAFE stop? I understand it is needed to prevent "city junk piles" and ground water contamination... but how far should it reach? Shut down entire industries, force companies to hire lawyers to get around the fine print, or cheat like VW did? The EPA needs to be defunded 90%
Or we could move all the polluting industries to your state? Would you like that? It costs money to comply with any regs, but it can be done. Some businesses choose to leave instead. Others find a way to stay and profit. Clean air and water should be a fundamental right.
 
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Originally Posted By: surfstar
Originally Posted By: Vern_in_IL
So where should the EPA CAFE stop? I understand it is needed to prevent "city junk piles" and ground water contamination... but how far should it reach? Shut down entire industries, force companies to hire lawyers to get around the fine print, or cheat like VW did? The EPA needs to be defunded 90%
Or we could move all the polluting industries to your state? Would you like that? It costs money to comply with any regs, but it can be done. Some businesses choose to leave instead. Others find a way to stay and profit. Clean air and water should be a fundamental right.
Not sure about an industry that does not pollute, but the biggest polluter is animal agriculture. Would you like us to move all the Turkey and Hog operations adjacent to your home? The EPA does not eliminate pollution, it merely manages/regulates it. Lie to me some more, this is fun.
 
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Originally Posted By: Vern_in_IL
Originally Posted By: surfstar
Or we could move all the polluting industries to your state? Would you like that? It costs money to comply with any regs, but it can be done. Some businesses choose to leave instead. Others find a way to stay and profit. Clean air and water should be a fundamental right.
Not sure about an industry that does not pollute, but the biggest polluter is animal agriculture. Would you like us to move all the Turkey and Hog operations adjacent to your home? The EPA does not eliminate pollution, it merely manages/regulates it. Lie to me some more, this is fun.
EPA and CARB did not eliminate pollution, they regulates emission from various sources: vehicles of all types, factories ... Yes, we paid higher price for special formulated gasoline to reduce smog, and it did show result. This is a typical day in Los Angeles in 1970, do you like to live in a city with this level of pollution ? This was Los Angeles in 1970's viewed from the air Los Angeles today
 
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Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Pity the automaker that tries to engineer a global engine. It has to meet at least 6 different set of emissions standards, depending on which country it's going to be sold in.
Not really. The established guys appreciate the huge barriers to entry.
 

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Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Pity the automaker that tries to engineer a global engine. It has to meet at least 6 different set of emissions standards, depending on which country it's going to be sold in.
Not really. The established guys appreciate the huge barriers to entry.
If an engine meets California Ultra Low emission it will meet any emission regulation in the world.
 
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Originally Posted By: DriveHard
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Quote:
These short excerpts from my bulging dieselgate files should dispel any notions that Volkswagen is the sole villain, and that the rest of the auto industry is all saints. Allow me a few comments and amplifications to the above. According to the relevant EU rules, “the use of defeat devices that reduce the effectiveness of emission control systems shall be prohibited,” except in cases where automakers decide to use them. “The prohibition shall not apply,” say the rules, when “the need for the device is justified in terms of protecting the engine against damage or accident and for safe operation of the vehicle.” Carmakers make wide, and sometimes liberal use of this handy provision.
Just about any vehicle on the road will begin dumping fuel into the engine under a catalytic converter overheat situation, which is going to ramp up emissions and destroy fuel economy, easily.
Actually it would be just the opposite. If the diesel oxidation catalyst were to start overheating, or the particulate filter started to overheat during a regeneration cycle, the diesel engine would STOP dumping excess fuel into the cycle. In a diesel, excess fuel is either injected late in the combustion process, or in the exhaust stream to INCREASE DOC or PF temperatures. The purpose of the DOC is to burn excess hydrocarbons and produce heat in the process!
My specific example was for a typical gasoline engine emissions defeat scenario, not a diesel one. It's probably impossible to make an engine 100% incapable of defeating emissions controls, especially while the engine is cold.
 
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