quote:SYN versus Dino, the syn generally has better base stock oxidation resistance compared to a Dino base stock so they do not requitre any more additive system since the additives now do not have to protect the base stock as much as a dino oil. BUT with GPII and GPIII that improvement in oxidation with a syn is getting smaller. bruce
Originally posted by Steve S: LargeCarMan,Why do the syns seem to have pretty equal additive levels as petro oils ?
Quote:Any "musclecar" built in the USA before 1975 will not have a catalytic converter. Even if they did, HDEO wouldn't hurt it. These oils are rated SL for use in gasoline burning engines
Hi. I have always wondered whether the excessive zinc in diesel oil would shorten the life of the catalytic convertor. Any idea?
Quote:Plenty of credible research has shown that the phosphorus in ZDDP will reduce the effectiveness of catalytic converters. If you have an 10+ year old car that doesn't have to pass yearly stringent emission tests, it may not be of concern. But to say it has no effect, is a little bit misleading. Otherwise, why would they have gone through all the trouble to reduce the levels in current PCMOs and the upcoming CJ-4 HDEOs.
Hi. I have always wondered whether the excessive zinc in diesel oil would shorten the life of the catalytic convertor. Any idea?
Quote:I think you need to learn the difference between the API "SL" rating for gas engines, and the ILSAC GF-3/GF-4 rating which covers gas engines AND includes limits on certain additives to protect the cats. Saying that an SL rated oil is fine for all gas engines with or without cats is just plain ignorant. NB: I'm not saying that I buy into the argument that HDEOs will damage cats. But SL rated HDEOs have ZDDP levels that far exceed the caps placed on PCMOs by ILSAC GF-3 and GF-4.
Any "musclecar" built in the USA before 1975 will not have a catalytic converter. Even if they did, HDEO wouldn't hurt it. These oils are rated SL for use in gasoline burning engines
Quote:I think a better way to express it is to say that the higher the level of Phosphorus (ZDDP) and other additives, the greater the rate at which the catalytic converters effectiveness may be reduced. As posted several times before: http://repairnet.aircare.ca/documentation/newsletterpdfs/2005-1.pdf http://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514269543/isbn9514269543.pdf http://www.swri.org/dasl/n-tcd/dasl_n-tcdb4.pdf http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/32842.pdf http://www.savantgroup.com/ASTMSym04-PEI.pdf http://www.swri.edu/3pubs/ttoday/Winter04/Focas.htm
I'm not saying that I buy into the argument that HDEOs will damage cats.
Quote:I stand by what I said and no I'm not ignorant. Thanks though. Read up on high performance engines using flat tappet cams that have had cam lobe/lifter failure with the latest and greatest API certified oils AND THEN get back to me. Remember, the original topic here is MUSCLECARS and HDEO. All real musclecars left the factory with flat tappet cams. A real musclecar is a high performance car built from ~1960 up to 1971-for those that might not have been around during this era. Most people that build up engines for use in older high performance cars, of varying years that can even be other than the afformentioned time frame, still use flat tappet cams if they cannot afford to upgrade to a roller setup. These flat tappet cams need the additives in HDEO to survive because modern day API certified oils are far too neutered to properly protect the moving parts. It has already been proven by the major aftermarket cam companies that the lack of Zinc and other additives is wiping out cam lobes and lifters. Top engine builders and cam companies recommend the use of HDEO to prevent cam lobe and lifter failure when a flat tappet cam is used.
Saying that an SL rated oil is fine for all gas engines with or without cats is just plain ignorant.
Quote:I agree with you that an HDEO is probably the best oil for these type engines. However, I was responding to this comment you made: "Any 'musclecar' built in the USA before 1975 will not have a catalytic converter. Even if they did, HDEO wouldn't hurt it. These oils are rated SL for use in gasoline burning engines." YOU threw the cat converter into the mix with that statement. And an SL rating does not guarantee suitability for gas engines running cats (if one buys into the notion that HDEO levels of ZDDP can affect cat performance).
Quote:I stand by what I said and no I'm not ignorant. Thanks though. Read up on high performance engines using flat tappet cams that have had cam lobe/lifter failure with the latest and greatest API certified oils AND THEN get back to me.
Saying that an SL rated oil is fine for all gas engines with or without cats is just plain ignorant.
Quote:To be fair, not all musclecars built from ~1960 up to 1971 would destroy their cams without the use of HDEOs. An L-79 350 or a LS-5 454 would have no problems surviving on current PCMOs as long as you kept the OCIs reasonable. The break in procedure is what's most critical here. Now when you move to aftermarket cams, springs, rockers, your in a whole new territory. With the acceleration ramps in those cams couple with the significant increase in spring pressures and higher ratio rockers, you're in a whole new territory. Break in procedure is even more critical, and HDEOs are a great match to compensate for ZDDP depletion. In fact, once broken in, even these cams could survive on current PCMOs, but you'd have to keep the OCI to something like 1,000 miles or less.
A real musclecar is a high performance car built from ~1960 up to 1971-for those that might not have been around during this era. Most people that build up engines for use in older high performance cars, of varying years that can even be other than the afformentioned time frame, still use flat tappet cams if they cannot afford to upgrade to a roller setup. These flat tappet cams need the additives in HDEO to survive because modern day API certified oils are far too neutered to properly protect the moving parts. It has already been proven by the major aftermarket cam companies that the lack of Zinc and other additives is wiping out cam lobes and lifters. Top engine builders and cam companies recommend the use of HDEO to prevent cam lobe and lifter failure when a flat tappet cam is used.
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Anyway I came accross this:
http://www.quakerstate.com/pages/carcare/whattoknow.asp
The interesting part:
"There are two main reasons why vehicle manufacturers recommend thinner or lighter viscosity grades of motor oil. First, a gain in fuel economy can be achieved with lower viscosity oil. At cold temperatures and at start up, lower viscosity oil will reduce internal engine friction. About 10% of the engine's horsepower is lost to internal engine friction, resulting in a drop in fuel economy. Additionally, vehicle manufacturers are struggling to meet Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) requirements set by the government and avoid paying associated fines. Any fuel mileage improvement associated with a lubricant use would be good for them, and lighter viscosity grade motor oil will make a difference.
Second, thinner motor oil is essential for easy starting, particularly in cold weather, and for proper lubrication once the engine starts. Today's smaller engines have smaller clearances and tighter tolerances between moving parts, and there have been some instances where camshaft damage has occurred because of inadequate lubrication with higher viscosity grades in colder weather. Thinner oils, such as SAE 5W-30, will flow faster than heavier motor oils during start-up and initial engine operation and will help protect the engine from excessive wear. Multigrade oil will also offer the same high temperature protection as single grade motor oil. Always check your vehicle owner's manual to select the proper viscosity grade based on the expected temperature range.
The viscosity grade(s) recommended by the vehicle manufacturer depend somewhat on engine design. Engine manufacturers have spent considerable time and expense experimenting with different viscosity grades and have indicated in the owner's manual the grades they feel will best protect the engine at specific temperatures. While one manufacturer's engine may require an SAE 10W-30, another manufacturer's engine may require an SAE 5W-20 viscosity grade. This is likely due to different tolerances within the engine or other engine design factors. "
I think this explains a lot about the viscosity changes.. and the changes to motor oil in general. So much of it is legislation meeting criteria.. just like ODB2.Quote:Huh? You read that, and that's the conclusion you came to?
I think this explains a lot about the viscosity changes.. and the changes to motor oil in general. So much of it is legislation meeting criteria.. just like ODB2.
Anyway, here's a quick and dirty for a SBC startup procedure. Tailor as neccesary.
1) Safety first! If the car is on the ground, be sure the emergency brake is set, the wheels are chocked, and the transmission cannot fall into gear. Next verify that all hoses are tight and that both the radiator and radiator over flow jar/tank are full and have been filled with the proper anti-freeze and water mix.
2) Before starting your engine for the first time, add one pint of engine oil supplement ( EOS¹) to the crankcase oil and then check the oil level. Once this has been done, prime the oil system with an oil pump primer tool. Make sure number 1 cylinder is on TDC compression stroke, and install the distributor.
3) Adjust the distributor timing roughly by hand for a quick start up and smoothest idle possible.
4) When the engine first starts, verify that the engine rpm is at a safe level and that the timing is set near or at 30° before top dead center (BTDC). Run the engine speed between 1,500 and 2,500 RPM’s, varying the engine speed up and down with-in this range, to prevent overheating of the exhaust valves and the exhaust system. This should be done with no-load on the engine and for the first 30 minutes of operation.
5) After the first 30 minutes of the engine running, set the ignition timing according to the timing specifications. Now would be a good time to check thoroughly for leaks.
6) Adjust the carburetor settings, if necessary.
7) Drive the vehicle with varying speeds and loads on the engine for the first 30 miles. Be sure not to use a lot of throttle or high RPM.
8) Run five or six medium-throttle accelerations to about 3,800 RPM (55 to 60 MPH), then letting off in gear and coasting back down to 20 MPH.
9) Run a couple hard-throttle accelerations up to about 3,800 RPM (55 to 60 MPH), then letting off in gear and coasting back down to 20 MPH.
10) Change the oil and filter with recommended oil (10w30 in most cases) and filter.
11) Drive the next 500 miles normally, without high RPM’s (below 3,800 RPM), hard use, or extended periods of high loading.
12) Change oil and filter again.
13) Your engine is now ready for many happy cruising miles!
Note¹: EOS P/N 1052367 can be used any time during the life of the engine.
GM recommends 10w30 weight engine oil for normal driving conditions. If you are towing or hauling heavy loads during the summer months, you can use 15w40 or 30w engine oil. Do not use synthetic engine oil with this engine until after you have not only completed the initial engine break-in procedure but also the 2,000 mile break-in period. Using synthetic engine oils prematurely will prevent or hinder your engine's break-in leaving the piston rings not seated properly and a number of other problems.Quote:You still need to run a "heavier duty" ZDDP fortified oil in these type of engines regardless if the cam is broken in already or not. If HDEO/Diesel doesn't evoke thoughts of high performance, then a specialized high performance oil from Redline or Royal Purple should substitute for long cam and lifter life. Ask me how I know. Edit: Fixed quote tag.
Quote:To be fair, not all musclecars built from ~1960 up to 1971 would destroy their cams without the use of HDEOs. An L-79 350 or a LS-5 454 would have no problems surviving on current PCMOs as long as you kept the OCIs reasonable. The break in procedure is what's most critical here. Now when you move to aftermarket cams, springs, rockers, your in a whole new territory. With the acceleration ramps in those cams couple with the significant increase in spring pressures and higher ratio rockers, you're in a whole new territory. Break in procedure is even more critical, and HDEOs are a great match to compensate for ZDDP depletion. In fact, once broken in, even these cams could survive on current PCMOs, but you'd have to keep the OCI to something like 1,000 miles or less.
A real musclecar is a high performance car built from ~1960 up to 1971-for those that might not have been around during this era. Most people that build up engines for use in older high performance cars, of varying years that can even be other than the afformentioned time frame, still use flat tappet cams if they cannot afford to upgrade to a roller setup. These flat tappet cams need the additives in HDEO to survive because modern day API certified oils are far too neutered to properly protect the moving parts. It has already been proven by the major aftermarket cam companies that the lack of Zinc and other additives is wiping out cam lobes and lifters. Top engine builders and cam companies recommend the use of HDEO to prevent cam lobe and lifter failure when a flat tappet cam is used.
Quote:Sorry bub, just reading what it says on the bottle. I can scan it for you if you'd like. There is no proof that ZDDP will in fact cause catalytic converter or even O2 sensor degragation at all. It is in fact just all speculation and conjecture. There was just a blurb about this in the latest issue of GM High Tech Performance and the rep from Royal Purple pretty much said just what I have been saying the past couple of days. So the SL rating for gasoline engines is just that in my opinion. I run HDEO in my wife's VW gas burners and I run HDEO in my Jeep gas burners. Obviously all of them have cats and none of them have shown any ill effects from the HDEO oil flowing in them. All have passed their respective emissions tests. No check engine lights showing downstream O2 failure of which its only purpose in life is to monitor cat efficiency. The oldest VW is a 01 with nearly 100K mostly city miles on it. It has had 5W40 HDEO from day one, so if I were to see any problems it would be with this one. That particular VW has always burned oil since brand new and currently burns a quart of oil every 2K miles, so there's plenty of ZDDPified oil vapor that has passed through its converter. Until the scientists can prove without a doubt the ZDDP/cat killer connection, I'll happily use SL rated HDEO in my catalytic converter equipped engines. Why not?
Quote:I agree with you that an HDEO is probably the best oil for these type engines. However, I was responding to this comment you made: "Any 'musclecar' built in the USA before 1975 will not have a catalytic converter. Even if they did, HDEO wouldn't hurt it. These oils are rated SL for use in gasoline burning engines." YOU threw the cat converter into the mix with that statement. And an SL rating does not guarantee suitability for gas engines running cats (if one buys into the notion that HDEO levels of ZDDP can affect cat performance).
Quote:I stand by what I said and no I'm not ignorant. Thanks though. Read up on high performance engines using flat tappet cams that have had cam lobe/lifter failure with the latest and greatest API certified oils AND THEN get back to me.
Saying that an SL rated oil is fine for all gas engines with or without cats is just plain ignorant.
Edit: Fixed quote tag.Quote:You obviously haven't read any of the references I listed above. I guess if you want to base all your knowledge on old wives tales, mechanic myths and anecdotal evidence, you're more than welcome.
There is no proof that ZDDP will in fact cause catalytic converter or even O2 sensor degragation at all. It is in fact just all speculation and conjecture.
