Yeah they don't have control over the Dot 3, 4 spec and rebrand whatever is convenient. I'm guessing the brake fluid was priced competitively because everyone else has dot 3,4. Maybe if they allowed others to carry ATF and coolant spec approvals, it wouldn't be as expensive.
Dex VI goes in the Prius tomorrow.
- Thread starter oggb
- Start date
- Status
Their ATF (Matic S) was expensive as far as ATFs go, but it wasn't priced out of line with my online sources. It is, however, close to double the price of MaxLife ATF or any Dexron VI out there.
As an ATF where wet clutches are involved. I do think Dex VI is a better build fluid than WS. For the Prius CVT (or IVT if they want to call that), I do not know if it would matter because you are not relying on the friction modification part of the fluid. I'd imagine a non corrosive, dielectric, seal compatible gear oil with the right viscosity would be ideal as they are designed for what Prius would need, a gear oil.
The attempt to use Dex VI to get better base oil seems to be a good try, but you are probably not going to notice much benefit. The potential of long term corrosion on some minor parts (i.e. electrical winding on the motor) or seal compatibility may not be worth the limited, if any, upside.
The fact that even the new low visc MaxLife do not recommend CVT use raise an alarm. The viscosity is close enough, the base stock is synthetic, and there's nothing that will stress the friction property, but they just don't recommend it. There must be something either in theory (chemistry) or lack of sufficient test data that they do not feel comfortable doing so.
The attempt to use Dex VI to get better base oil seems to be a good try, but you are probably not going to notice much benefit. The potential of long term corrosion on some minor parts (i.e. electrical winding on the motor) or seal compatibility may not be worth the limited, if any, upside.
The fact that even the new low visc MaxLife do not recommend CVT use raise an alarm. The viscosity is close enough, the base stock is synthetic, and there's nothing that will stress the friction property, but they just don't recommend it. There must be something either in theory (chemistry) or lack of sufficient test data that they do not feel comfortable doing so.
Originally Posted By: meep
i just spoke to our toyota dealer yesterday. they don't use their own WS fluid -- they flushed the vehicle I now own earlier this year and installed a BG ATF in the trans. So much for "nothing but oem!!"
You need a new stealership. I would look again at the invoice, if they priced u for WS and put OTC ATF, you can go and ask Toyota [censored] is wrong w/ the stealership.
I had my Nissan stealership say the same w/ coolants -- I never ever stepped into that stealership again. Down the road in another town they carried Nissan coolant and went and bought it.
Many of the the stealership counter folks are quite a pack of fools -- they know they cannot be sued for their OTC uneducated recommendations right.
i just spoke to our toyota dealer yesterday. they don't use their own WS fluid -- they flushed the vehicle I now own earlier this year and installed a BG ATF in the trans. So much for "nothing but oem!!"
You need a new stealership. I would look again at the invoice, if they priced u for WS and put OTC ATF, you can go and ask Toyota [censored] is wrong w/ the stealership.
I had my Nissan stealership say the same w/ coolants -- I never ever stepped into that stealership again. Down the road in another town they carried Nissan coolant and went and bought it.
Many of the the stealership counter folks are quite a pack of fools -- they know they cannot be sued for their OTC uneducated recommendations right.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
As an ATF where wet clutches are involved. I do think Dex VI is a better build fluid than WS. For the Prius CVT (or IVT if they want to call that), I do not know if it would matter because you are not relying on the friction modification part of the fluid. I'd imagine a non corrosive, dielectric, seal compatible gear oil with the right viscosity would be ideal as they are designed for what Prius would need, a gear oil.
Any low-viscosity MV fluid that makes Dex VI/Merc LV claims will probably work for Toyota WS.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
The fact that even the new low visc MaxLife do not recommend CVT use raise an alarm. The viscosity is close enough, the base stock is synthetic, and there's nothing that will stress the friction property, but they just don't recommend it. There must be something either in theory (chemistry) or lack of sufficient test data that they do not feel comfortable doing so.
CVT is a whole different animal than conventional planetary automatics. Regular ATF has a lot of friction modifiers for smooth clutch engagement. They are not designed to "grab", and if they do they will likely wear prematurely. The CVT fluid is designed by "grab" to keep the belt/chain from slipping on the pulleys. The friction modifiers found in normal ATF will cause CVTs to slip.
As an ATF where wet clutches are involved. I do think Dex VI is a better build fluid than WS. For the Prius CVT (or IVT if they want to call that), I do not know if it would matter because you are not relying on the friction modification part of the fluid. I'd imagine a non corrosive, dielectric, seal compatible gear oil with the right viscosity would be ideal as they are designed for what Prius would need, a gear oil.
Any low-viscosity MV fluid that makes Dex VI/Merc LV claims will probably work for Toyota WS.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
The fact that even the new low visc MaxLife do not recommend CVT use raise an alarm. The viscosity is close enough, the base stock is synthetic, and there's nothing that will stress the friction property, but they just don't recommend it. There must be something either in theory (chemistry) or lack of sufficient test data that they do not feel comfortable doing so.
CVT is a whole different animal than conventional planetary automatics. Regular ATF has a lot of friction modifiers for smooth clutch engagement. They are not designed to "grab", and if they do they will likely wear prematurely. The CVT fluid is designed by "grab" to keep the belt/chain from slipping on the pulleys. The friction modifiers found in normal ATF will cause CVTs to slip.
Interestingly, Valvoline makes a CVT fluid, but they don't recommend it for hybrid applications, and specifically call out Toyota and Ford as examples.
Valvoline CVT fluid
Valvoline CVT fluid
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I don't have much against Toyota having and recommending their spec fluids, ATF and coolant. But the fact that they do not license that spec to other suppliers is what gets me.
I frankly couldn't agree with you more on this. GM and Ford license their ATF specifications. Chrysler licenses its ATF+4 specification. None of the other manufacturers that I know of, namely Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc, license their fluid specifications. Anybody in the world could produce Honda's DW-1. Idemitsu happens to be the supplier, but anyone COULD do it...if Honda would license it.
Frankly, I think Honda (or any of these other manufacturers) would make more money licensing the fluid than they would forcing everyone to buy it through the dealerships. In the end, folks are finding that aftermarket replacement fluids are working as good or better, so they're skipping the dealership altogether. That might not have been the case if you could get a Super Tech DW-1 at Walmart for $3.99/bottle like you can Super Tech ATF+4. Here, the OEM would at least get the royalty from the license.
I don't have much against Toyota having and recommending their spec fluids, ATF and coolant. But the fact that they do not license that spec to other suppliers is what gets me.
I frankly couldn't agree with you more on this. GM and Ford license their ATF specifications. Chrysler licenses its ATF+4 specification. None of the other manufacturers that I know of, namely Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc, license their fluid specifications. Anybody in the world could produce Honda's DW-1. Idemitsu happens to be the supplier, but anyone COULD do it...if Honda would license it.
Frankly, I think Honda (or any of these other manufacturers) would make more money licensing the fluid than they would forcing everyone to buy it through the dealerships. In the end, folks are finding that aftermarket replacement fluids are working as good or better, so they're skipping the dealership altogether. That might not have been the case if you could get a Super Tech DW-1 at Walmart for $3.99/bottle like you can Super Tech ATF+4. Here, the OEM would at least get the royalty from the license.
Originally Posted By: jake88
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
As an ATF where wet clutches are involved. I do think Dex VI is a better build fluid than WS. For the Prius CVT (or IVT if they want to call that), I do not know if it would matter because you are not relying on the friction modification part of the fluid. I'd imagine a non corrosive, dielectric, seal compatible gear oil with the right viscosity would be ideal as they are designed for what Prius would need, a gear oil.
Any low-viscosity MV fluid that makes Dex VI/Merc LV claims will probably work for Toyota WS.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
The fact that even the new low visc MaxLife do not recommend CVT use raise an alarm. The viscosity is close enough, the base stock is synthetic, and there's nothing that will stress the friction property, but they just don't recommend it. There must be something either in theory (chemistry) or lack of sufficient test data that they do not feel comfortable doing so.
CVT is a whole different animal than conventional planetary automatics. Regular ATF has a lot of friction modifiers for smooth clutch engagement. They are not designed to "grab", and if they do they will likely wear prematurely. The CVT fluid is designed by "grab" to keep the belt/chain from slipping on the pulleys. The friction modifiers found in normal ATF will cause CVTs to slip.
FYI-- not sure if you are aware-- this trans has no chains or clutches. basically a planetary gearset operating as a differential. drive ratios are developed by biasing the two motor/generators against each other.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
As an ATF where wet clutches are involved. I do think Dex VI is a better build fluid than WS. For the Prius CVT (or IVT if they want to call that), I do not know if it would matter because you are not relying on the friction modification part of the fluid. I'd imagine a non corrosive, dielectric, seal compatible gear oil with the right viscosity would be ideal as they are designed for what Prius would need, a gear oil.
Any low-viscosity MV fluid that makes Dex VI/Merc LV claims will probably work for Toyota WS.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
The fact that even the new low visc MaxLife do not recommend CVT use raise an alarm. The viscosity is close enough, the base stock is synthetic, and there's nothing that will stress the friction property, but they just don't recommend it. There must be something either in theory (chemistry) or lack of sufficient test data that they do not feel comfortable doing so.
CVT is a whole different animal than conventional planetary automatics. Regular ATF has a lot of friction modifiers for smooth clutch engagement. They are not designed to "grab", and if they do they will likely wear prematurely. The CVT fluid is designed by "grab" to keep the belt/chain from slipping on the pulleys. The friction modifiers found in normal ATF will cause CVTs to slip.
FYI-- not sure if you are aware-- this trans has no chains or clutches. basically a planetary gearset operating as a differential. drive ratios are developed by biasing the two motor/generators against each other.
I just don't see the need to save a couple bucks in this application. When I did drain and fill on our 2008 Prius at 25k, the fluid from the dealer was about $7 a liter. I would need to buy 4+ quarts or not fill it all the way. What am I going to save? Maybe six bucks? And in the process use a fluid not recommended for cvt. Just seems short sighted in this case.
Just wanted to update this thread:
Put Dexron VI in the Prius. Old fluid that came out looked like [censored] but smelled OK (I guess). Supertech/Warren Dexron VI doesn't have as strong of a smell to it as some ATFs (Maxlife smells awful).
Car works fine.
If Ford had made the Prius it'd use Mercon V. Chevy Volts use Dexron VI in the transmission - the winding insulation in those is exposed to ATF as well. Toyota WS does not appear to possess any special dielectric properties. Is it safer for the motor windings?
I bet Toyota engineers never thought twice about the ATF being safe for the winding insulation. Volt engineers probably didn't either. There's also sorts of wussy plastic parts and wires with comparatively wimpy insulation in your average car's transmission. Don't see those parts failing too often.
Fresh ATF of any kind is probably better for the windings than old, dirty, oxidized Toyota WS.
It's all for nothing anyhow - look at how many of these cars make it high mileage with very little maintenance and very little fuss.
Put Dexron VI in the Prius. Old fluid that came out looked like [censored] but smelled OK (I guess). Supertech/Warren Dexron VI doesn't have as strong of a smell to it as some ATFs (Maxlife smells awful).
Car works fine.
If Ford had made the Prius it'd use Mercon V. Chevy Volts use Dexron VI in the transmission - the winding insulation in those is exposed to ATF as well. Toyota WS does not appear to possess any special dielectric properties. Is it safer for the motor windings?
I bet Toyota engineers never thought twice about the ATF being safe for the winding insulation. Volt engineers probably didn't either. There's also sorts of wussy plastic parts and wires with comparatively wimpy insulation in your average car's transmission. Don't see those parts failing too often.
Fresh ATF of any kind is probably better for the windings than old, dirty, oxidized Toyota WS.
It's all for nothing anyhow - look at how many of these cars make it high mileage with very little maintenance and very little fuss.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: jake88
CVT is a whole different animal than conventional planetary automatics. Regular ATF has a lot of friction modifiers for smooth clutch engagement. They are not designed to "grab", and if they do they will likely wear prematurely. The CVT fluid is designed by "grab" to keep the belt/chain from slipping on the pulleys. The friction modifiers found in normal ATF will cause CVTs to slip.
Toyota's dual motor HSD CVT has nothing like belt & pulley / disk to grab and slip. It is basically a planetary gear with 2 electric motors and 1 engine. Like I said if winding insulation is not the problem the ideal fluid would be a gear oil, and any fluid would work fine.
My original point was that neither Toyota or the aftermarket fluid manufacturer recommend using it, and that would be a big red flag if you do not feel lucky.
CVT is a whole different animal than conventional planetary automatics. Regular ATF has a lot of friction modifiers for smooth clutch engagement. They are not designed to "grab", and if they do they will likely wear prematurely. The CVT fluid is designed by "grab" to keep the belt/chain from slipping on the pulleys. The friction modifiers found in normal ATF will cause CVTs to slip.
Toyota's dual motor HSD CVT has nothing like belt & pulley / disk to grab and slip. It is basically a planetary gear with 2 electric motors and 1 engine. Like I said if winding insulation is not the problem the ideal fluid would be a gear oil, and any fluid would work fine.
My original point was that neither Toyota or the aftermarket fluid manufacturer recommend using it, and that would be a big red flag if you do not feel lucky.
- Status