Dex-Cool, Prestone, Super Tech Observations

Coolant_Man

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Originally Posted By: Chris142
Ask and you shall recieve...
I am not being mean towards you, but those links prove nothing. The last link though just shows a neglected cooling system. I do realize the GM advertises Dex-Cool as having a service life of 5 years/150K miles whichever comes first, but it still needs to be checked. It is like buying tires. A set claims to have a service life of 60K miles. They still need to be checked, rotated, balanced, and inflated to reach this.
 
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Ok heres what CSF says. http://www.csfimports.com/tech.asp#antifrz Core Type Coolant Type ... Copper-Brass core GM 6038 or equivalent or Hybrid Anti Freeze. Coolant like Valvoline G05. Aluminum Core GM 6043 or equivalent or Extended Life. Anti Freeze Coolants like Dexcool or other Organic coolants or Hybrid Anti Freezes like Valvoline G05. CSF is a huge Radiator manufacturrer of aftermarket Radiators and they do not recomend Dexcool in their Copper/ Brass radiators. If you google GM 6038 you will see that it's a low Silicate green coolant with a diesel extender.
 
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Originally Posted By: Coolant_Man
It is like buying tires. A set claims to have a service life of 60K miles. They still need to be checked, rotated, balanced, and inflated to reach this.
I agree with you there but GM puts a sticker under the hood that says "Your cooling system requires no maintenance for 5yr of 150k". Important words are "No Maintenance" so nobody checks it. You can keep your Dexcool........It keeps me in business. smile
 

Coolant_Man

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Originally Posted By: Chris142
Once again that is not proof. It's a recommendation. I want to see solder/copper issues directly related to OAT coolant usage. I did a quick search and found this... http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?p=276274#post276274 "GM does not recommend installing an organic-acid based coolant in systems with a copper/brass/soldered radiator because of a potential for lead corrosion. However, Prestone says their organic-acid ethylene glycol tests have shown no problem with lead corrosion, and recommends the use of their organic-acid ethylene glycol coolant in either copper/brass or aluminum systems. Our tests here at The Diesel Page with Texaco/Havoline Dex-Cool and copper/brass/soldered radiators have shown no internal cooling system deterioration after nearly 120,000 miles and four years of use (6.5TD)."
 
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Coolgard/Coolgard II here is still around $14 a gallon, I haven't seen the Coolgard II PG at my dealer, just the literature. I'm sure the PG version is much more expensive. I can't comment on the Dexcool portion of this discussion, I don't own anything GM, other than a '62 C5 and it has Coolgard in it.
 
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Originally Posted By: Coolant_Man
The marketing hype that Propylene Glycol is safer for animals and dumb kids that might drink it is [censored]. It will kill if consumed.
Hold on a minute. PROPYLENE glycol is most definitely non-toxic. Manufactured to the correct standards, it is a food additive: Link Granted, it is being phased out and its long-term safety leaves some doubt, but nobody seems to have keeled over from drinking it in old soft drink formulations or current cake frostings. That is NOT to say that a PG-based coolant, including either the organic or inorganic corrosion inhibitors, isn't toxic. It may well be once those chemicals are added to the base PG fluid. But the PG itself is not the deadly components. In contrast ethylene glycol with or without any inhibitor package is a tremendously potent liver toxin and will kill humans and animals slowly and painfully. A big difference a few atoms make...
Quote:
I believe most coolant issues can avoided by proper maintenance and using quality coolant such as Prestone AMAM .
And I believe that Preston AMAM is the cause of most cooling system issues (OK, I exaggerate- it shouldn't hurt cars that are ok with DexCool). But it is a 2EHA coolant that will definitely attack some gasket materials. Chemistry trumps opinions on that much.
 

Coolant_Man

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Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Hold on a minute. PROPYLENE glycol is most definitely non-toxic. Manufactured to the correct standards, it is a food additive: Link Granted, it is being phased out and its long-term safety leaves some doubt, but nobody seems to have keeled over from drinking it in old soft drink formulations or current cake frostings. That is NOT to say that a PG-based coolant, including either the organic or inorganic corrosion inhibitors, isn't toxic. It may well be once those chemicals are added to the base PG fluid. But the PG itself is not the deadly components. In contrast ethylene glycol with or without any inhibitor package is a tremendously potent liver toxin and will kill humans and animals slowly and painfully. A big difference a few atoms make...
Yes PG is safer than EG, but then again soda and food doesn't contain 95% PG.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
And I believe that Preston AMAM is the cause of most cooling system issues (OK, I exaggerate- it shouldn't hurt cars that are ok with DexCool). But it is a 2EHA coolant that will definitely attack some gasket materials. Chemistry trumps opinions on that much.
As I discussed earlier in the first post, potassium 2-EHA sounds bad to me. But sodium 2-EHA on the other hand sounds much safer. I have no issues at all with the Super Tech running in the other vehicles I have put it in. I would like to see a test where a gasket supposedly at risk of any 2-EHA coolant is soaked in a mixture of 2-EHA OAT coolant and distilled water until it gets eaten up.
 
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Originally Posted By: Coolant_Man
When Dex-Cool works IT WORKS!
How much better of a coolant is DexCool than G-05 or Zerex Asian Formula? It isn't. At best, it performs the same, at worst its a catastrophe. So why?
 
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Originally Posted By: Coolant_Man
As I discussed earlier in the first post, potassium 2-EHA sounds bad to me. But sodium 2-EHA on the other hand sounds much safer. I have no issues at all with the Super Tech running in the other vehicles I have put it in.
A coolant expert I am not. But I am not sure I see where you're coming from by saying that potassium 2-EHA should be significantly more damaging than sodium 2-EHA. Both are salts and both are combined into a more complex compound which has the potential to significantly alter any properties they may exhibit on their own. Purely out of curiosity, what is your background? Are these opinions based on industry or personal experience?
 

Coolant_Man

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Originally Posted By: FusilliJerry82
How much better of a coolant is DexCool than G-05 or Zerex Asian Formula? It isn't. At best, it performs the same, at worst its a catastrophe. So why?
You'll have to prove it isn't. Since Ford Premium Gold is a version of G-05 and Ford is moving everything to OAT Ford Premium Orange (Dex-Cool essentially), it would seem Ford thinks G-05 is now an inferior product. I cannot find the thread that was on here a few years ago, but I seem to remember one from a radiator repairman about G-05 problems which had pictures. I am speculating, but with Ford moving to OAT, I am guessing Mazda will do the same and soon all the Asian auto manufacturers will.
 
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Quote:
Our tests here at The Diesel Page with Texaco/Havoline Dex-Cool and copper/brass/soldered radiators have shown no internal cooling system deterioration after nearly 120,000 miles and four years of use (6.5TD)."
Quote:
I discussed earlier in the first post, potassium 2-EHA sounds bad to me. But sodium 2-EHA on the other hand sounds much safer. I have no issues at all with the Super Tech running in the other vehicles I have put it in.
When I analyzed Texaco/Havoline Dexcool in 2005 the results showed that it was potassium based; 50 ppm Na, 11,000 ppm K. What is your basis for thinking that potassium 2-EHA is worse than the sodium salt? Ed
 

Coolant_Man

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Originally Posted By: cchase
A coolant expert I am not. But I am not sure I see where you're coming from by saying that potassium 2-EHA should be significantly more damaging than sodium 2-EHA. Both are salts and both are combined into a more complex compound which has the potential to significantly alter any properties they may exhibit on their own.
In regards to coolant, it seems like the pH levels of universal OAT coolants using sodium 2-EHA are higher than Dex-Cool using potassium 2-EHA. Here are some Wal-Mart MSDS links to prove this of 50/50 coolants since that would be around the ratio used in a cooling system... http://msds.walmartstores.com/cache/339831.pdf http://msds.walmartstores.com/cache/608471.pdf http://msds.walmartstores.com/cache/673879.pdf Note that Dex-Cool uses potassium 2-EHA whereas Prestone and Super Tech use sodium 2-EHA. In their pure forms, potassium is more reactive to water than sodium... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9z5-mJ8NZk I am still researching if potassium 2-EHA may be worse than sodium 2-EHA.
Originally Posted By: cchase
Purely out of curiosity, what is your background? Are these opinions based on industry or personal experience?
Mainly both professional and personal experience. It would be cool if industry chemists of both coolant and oil actively participated on this forum. I guess they are restricted from doing so due to proprietary secrets. I was surprised I was able to get permission from the John Deere chemist in an older thread I started mentioned earlier.
 

Coolant_Man

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Originally Posted By: edhackett
When I analyzed Texaco/Havoline Dexcool in 2005 the results showed that it was potassium based; 50 ppm Na, 11,000 ppm K. What is your basis for thinking that potassium 2-EHA is worse than the sodium salt? Ed
The basis was potassium's and sodium's reaction to water. I had never noticed before the 2-EHA difference between the two until recently. The more I research it though, it seems it might not matter. I am starting to think sodium 2-EHA is used to bypass Dex-Cool's license requirement of potassium 2-EHA. However, the pH level of universal coolants using sodium 2-EHA appears to be higher than that of Dex-Cool potassium 2-EHA.
 
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Originally Posted By: Coolant_Man
There are also MILLIONS of GMs out there with unpressurized over flow tanks running Dex-Cool with no problems at all.
I would want to see pictures and documented proof of that. Names addresses and phone numbers would also be good. My dealer serviced L67 was yellow (12 months and 1500miles), and when I flushed it full of rust and junk. Will do the LIM gaskets this holiday.
 
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Some quick thoughts on a busy Christmas Eve. Sodium is also highly reactive. According to wiki "Like all the alkali metals, it reacts exothermically with water, to the point that sufficiently large pieces melt to a sphere and then explode; this reaction produces caustic sodium hydroxide and flammable hydrogen gas. When burned in dry air, it mainly forms sodium peroxide as well as some sodium oxide. In moist air, sodium hydroxide results." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium Note that they mentioned alkali metals. This is important because it relates to your theory that perhaps sodium was used instead of potassium to get around license issues. This is not the case. For example, Prestone's own patent mentions alkali metal compounds, not specifically sodium. They could use potassium without infringing on the original patent because the other components are different.
 

Coolant_Man

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Originally Posted By: Shannow
I would want to see pictures and documented proof of that. Names addresses and phone numbers would also be good. My dealer serviced L67 was yellow (12 months and 1500miles), and when I flushed it full of rust and junk. Will do the LIM gaskets this holiday.
Yeah that would be impossible to DEFINITELY prove, but I can hypothesize that all the GMs still on the road which use unpressurized over flow tanks more than likely are still using Dex-Cool. Also the class action lawsuit did not represent all GM owners which means only a small percentage had problems.
 

Coolant_Man

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Originally Posted By: PeteTheFarmer
Some quick thoughts on a busy Christmas Eve. Sodium is also highly reactive. According to wiki "Like all the alkali metals, it reacts exothermically with water, to the point that sufficiently large pieces melt to a sphere and then explode; this reaction produces caustic sodium hydroxide and flammable hydrogen gas. When burned in dry air, it mainly forms sodium peroxide as well as some sodium oxide. In moist air, sodium hydroxide results." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium Note that they mentioned alkali metals. This is important because it relates to your theory that perhaps sodium was used instead of potassium to get around license issues. This is not the case. For example, Prestone's own patent mentions alkali metal compounds, not specifically sodium. They could use potassium without infringing on the original patent because the other components are different.
More research and updates on this. In their salt forms, sodium and potassium do not hold the properties of their element forms. Sodium is the salt on your table and in the ocean. Potassium is the salt found in minerals and is used in things such as gunpowder and fertilizer. Sodium salt is also more hygroscopic than potassium salt meaning it holds water better. Sodium, being more abundant, costs less than potassium so this may be a reason the universal coolants using it cost less than Dex-Cool. It seems like Dex-Cool requires potassium 2-ethylhexanoate. It instead of the sodium version are in all these MSDS's for Dex-Cool... Chevron Dex-Cool Havoline Dex-Cool Texaco Dex-Cool 50/50 Prediluted Zerex Dex-Cool
 

Coolant_Man

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Instead of OAT being called "Organic Acid Technology", I think a better one would be either "Organic Additive Technology" or call it OST for "Organic Salt Technology". I would almost pull the trigger and use Final Charge Global (http://www.finalcharge.com/organic.html) in everything, but it is not easy to find like Prestone AMAM and Super Tech.
 
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