Determining oil change intervals

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: Kyk noord en
Originally Posted By: tig1
After the warranty is up I would pick a quality synthetic(Amsoil,PP, M1) and run it for 8K then do a UOA. If OK, settle on 10K and enjoy you ride for many years and miles.
Why when the warranty is up? How is decreasing the OCI related?


I don't know what the warranty requirements are for your engine is, but I would not go against the manufacturer on this. Some may say it doesn't matter, but I wouldn't reccomend it as your engine isn't mine, and I wouldn't have to live with the problems that may arise if you break the warranty requirements. What I do with may engine is another thing.

 

[mechtech2]

Do you mean 15-18 thousand miles or kilometers?
You might go that long in miles, but I wouldn't because I have nothing to gain or prove.
It's a nice car, so use a full synth like recommended and go only 10k miles. Your driving conditions are pretty good.

 

[Kyk noord en]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Do you mean 15-18 thousand miles or kilometers?
OP stipulated miles.

 

[sangyup81]

How many miles do you drive a year?

 

[Kyk noord en]

Originally Posted By: tig1
I don't know what the warranty requirements are for your engine is, but I would not go against the manufacturer on this. Some may say it doesn't matter, but I wouldn't reccomend it as your engine isn't mine, and I wouldn't have to live with the problems that may arise if you break the warranty requirements. What I do with may engine is another thing.
Provided the car owner uses an oil that meets manufacturer specs, I don't know of any vehicle warranty that is jeopardized by changing the oil more often than the service manual calls for.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
How can a couple of extra oil changes hurt.


Here's something I've pondered since RS-Audiguy did his RLI thing due to high Fe and fuel dilution UOA fest.

I've yet to see proof that adhering to the OEM schedule resulted in the deposit formation. Oils have inherent volatile components that end up in the intake stream.

In this case, where intake valve deposits are an issue of merit in SOME instances, the last thing you would want to do is add more volatile components over a given mileage span to create more material to deposit.

That is, in RS's case, he was fighting fuel dilution and the apparent elevated Fe levels shown in UOA. He could have been making more valve deposits in the process.

If/when I get a DI engine where this is a known side effect ..and if it's a "keeper" ..I'll be redesigning the vent system to make it so that those volatiles never get to the valves.

Sorry for the side track hijack.

That all said, doing 2 OCI's/year won't alter warranty ..and if you're going to get nervous over a long maintenance minder OCI ..get a product that's specifically engineered for LOOOOOOOOOONG OCI's.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
miniac - BMW do a LOT of field and other types of lubricant testing - it is on-going - they are not amateurs in the field!

Use an Approved lubricant and then IME you are best to follow the on-board computor - they are conservative by design!

If you want to confirm it then start UOA trending commencing at around the 80% use factor

I follow mine in my Benz and always do a confirming UOA at the OCI. It is always conservative so now I tend to run beyond it by a few months/kms using the UOA as the prime criteria

 

[Kyk noord en]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
BMW do a LOT of field and other types of lubricant testing - it is on-going - they are not amateurs in the field!
No doubt they do, and no doubt they're professionals -- but your statement implies that the tests are designed to determine what's purely best for the engine rather than, say, what costs BMW, the dealer and the consumer the least while ensuring the engine maintains its integrity while BMW is responsible for the cost of repair, i.e., while it's under warranty.

Why do the UOAs for BMW HPS posted here indicate that the oil, while quite good, isn't up to extended OCIs?

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
If you want to confirm it then start UOA trending commencing at around the 80% use factor.
Good advice. Better still might be to perform a UOA at 50% the use factor to hedge bets, and carry on with UOAs from there until determining what OCI works best for this particular driver, in this particular car, using this particular oil, in this particular climate.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Kyk noord en - Well, I've had a little experience in this area.....................................

 

[Kyk noord en]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
Kyk noord en - Well, I've had a little experience in this area.....................................
Excellent! Please explain...

 

[miniac]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan


If/when I get a DI engine where this is a known side effect ..and if it's a "keeper" ..I'll be redesigning the vent system to make it so that those volatiles never get to the valves.

Sorry for the side track hijack.



Hijack welcome. A potential shortcoming to short OCI's is a new concept worth considering. Some are installing catch cans in these cars. THAT would give the warranty hawks something legitimate to talk about, I suspect.

Many thanks to all who commented.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
miniac - Yes, as Gary has alluded to, the OCI issue is well in the sights of Castrol in Germany who supply some (most) FF to BMW. They are also adamant that any "deposits" issue has not affected engine durability or life expectancy

 

[Gary Allan]

Pardon my butting in ...

Quote:
No doubt they do, and no doubt they're professionals -- but your statement implies that the tests are designed to determine what's purely best for the engine rather than, say, what costs BMW, the dealer and the consumer the least while ensuring the engine maintains its integrity while BMW is responsible for the cost of repair, i.e., while it's under warranty.


Why would you feel that BMW (or whomever) would design a system that would render the engine/chassis null and void beyond their responsibility for maintenance? That would make for many one hit ..NEVER AGAIN customers.

Quote:

Why do the UOAs for BMW HPS posted here indicate that the oil, while quite good, isn't up to extended OCIs?


Because we tend to apply standards that aren't necessary for a longer engine life beyond practical chassis life.

We've reached the point where the "life equity" of an engine could surely be dipped into a BIG CHUNK if it reduces overall costs and managed to jump through the hoops required by the prevailing regulations/needs/etc.

 

[Kyk noord en]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Why would you feel that BMW (or whomever) would design a system that would render the engine/chassis null and void beyond their responsibility for maintenance? That would make for many one hit ..NEVER AGAIN customers.
I didn't say they've designed a system to be null and void beyond their responsibility -- there's a world of difference between diminished longevity, which I'm arguing, and null and void. I think that the simple economics of resources versus return explains it. I'll quote from an unrelated thread on an unrelated site someone who I think explained it well.

You also have to consider BMW's position in the marketplace, and their overall busines strategy. They're not selling "the ultimate long-lasting machine," they're selling "the ultimate driving machine." And they have to meet a certain price point to do so (yes, they do. Stop thinking they're expensive to purchase for a minute).

In order to enhance performance, their engineers have to meet certain performance goals (acceleration, handling, etc.) while the accountants argue about the budget to meet those very goals ("why are you specifying this $55 part when we can get this one for $46.50?"). The brand managers are screaming "we need to beat Audi and Mercedes on the sales floor!" and the consumer is in the showroom telling the sales agent, "That's too much. I'll give you $xx,000, and not a penny more." The dealership calls BMW and says, "The cars are too expensive, we have had to cut our profit in order to make sales. Fix this." And the BMW suits say to themselves, "Maybe we can save some money by making parts that last only so many miles or years, so we can warranty them without having it cost out the @ss for us with warranty repair costs, and then we can sell them a new car. Sweet!"

So engineers, who design parts to fail only after so many cycles/years/miles, have to meet the accountant's budget, who are under pressure from the brand managers, who are getting yelled at by the dealers, who are screaming at the suits who have shareholders and families and friends and neighbors to answer to. Just what do you think the suits are going to do? Right... They'll say to all beneath them, "Make it last this long, no more, as cheaply as possible. Make it the best car possible until the car runs out of warranty coverage, and we'll worry about resale later."

And here we are now, with E9xs with programmable-by-dealer-only $400 battery replacements, no dipsticks, and plummeting resale values. You'll be able to pick these cars up in six years for staycation money. But it's only because... right now, walking into a dealership... you, the consumer, want ultimate driving thrills as cheaply as possible. BMW is building the cars we want, and are willing to pay for.

So I think you're exactly right, I think that with their current series', BMW is creating more "never again" customers than ever before.

An excellent article from BMW tech guru Mike Miller, furthering the point:

http://www.coates3.com/docs/downloads/bimmer-3_series_buyers_guide.pdf

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: kyk noord en
Why do the UOAs for BMW HPS posted here indicate that the oil, while quite good, isn't up to extended OCIs?


Because we tend to apply standards that aren't necessary for a longer engine life beyond practical chassis life.

We've reached the point where the "life equity" of an engine could surely be dipped into a BIG CHUNK if it reduces overall costs and managed to jump through the hoops required by the prevailing regulations/needs/etc.
Interestingly, here you answer your own question regarding why I think BMW (and others) might intentionally design an underengineered system.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Interestingly, here you answer your own question regarding why I think BMW (and others) might intentionally design an underengineered system.


No. I think the industry ..worldwide..is forced to dip into the life equity of engines.

The Euro's have always been maintenance hogs. They've just evolved it to beyond the payment level. VW/AUDI/whomever spec's complex fluids (AUDI) and the obsolescence of OEM parts makes LTR ownership ..in the ABSENCE of Teutonic anal retentive attention to the entire chassis a repurchasing experience in big bites. The Bentley forums are full of 10-13 year old former engineering marvels that are now in the $1200 reman parts purchasing stage.

We're just use to the word "maintenance" meaning fluids and adjustments.


..but back on to what I was getting at ..there are too many perfectly good engines being sent to the junkyard. Since "going backwards" would be more a thing for something like light bulbs ..making them fail often enough for someone to build a factory that they intend to make money at for more than the first round of production, it would make sense that you get the most out of an engine and reduce its longevity to more match the chassis life.

I don't think that will include shorting the OCI. It will be in the form of how many hoops they don't jump through in terms of fuel management with the engine taking some of the hit and power density. Stuff like that. It may include factoring the sensible amount of valve deposits that a customer can expect over the sensible lifetime of the chassis adhering to the OEM OCI and finding it not to be a problem over that time/mile span.

 

[mdoan300]

Originally Posted By: Kyk noord en
And here we are now, with E9xs with programmable-by-dealer-only $400 battery replacements, no dipsticks, and plummeting resale values. You'll be able to pick these cars up in six years for staycation money. But it's only because... right now, walking into a dealership... you, the consumer, want ultimate driving thrills as cheaply as possible. BMW is building the cars we want, and are willing to pay for.[/i]


Battery replacement - WRONG. You have other options:

1. Go buy one from from (i.e. AutoZone) and have the dealer register the battery; if you have a great relationship with your SA, then perhaps he'll do it for free or at 0.5 labor units;
2. Go buy one from your favorite place (i.e AutoZone) and invest in the Bavarian Technic diagnostic tool and register the battery yourself;
3. Go buy one from your favorite place (i.e. AutoZone) and don't register it... just don't expect the battery to last a long time because the Brake Energy Regeneration system will still think your battery is old and charge it incorrectly

No dipsticks - um... so what? My Porsche doesn't have a dipstick either. I trust the oil level sensor in both, because those sensors are also the oil temp sensor.

Quote:
So I think you're exactly right, I think that with their current series', BMW is creating more "never again" customers than ever before.


Out of all of the BMWs I own or have owned, I'd say my E36 M3 would make me a "never again" customer. My fiancee calls it the black hole money pit because I'm fixing something new every other weekend. In fact, I got so burnt out in losing my weekends that I ended up getting the 528i.

With 2 modern BMWs in our household, I'd hardly call myself a "never again" customer. As long as I can afford them, I will always own a BMW. I like how they drive, how they feel, the technology that's in them, and how comparably easy they are to work on.

Quote:
An excellent article from BMW tech guru Mike Miller, furthering the point:

http://www.coates3.com/docs/downloads/bimmer-3_series_buyers_guide.pdf


I'd hardly call Mike Miller a BMW tech "guru." I get more accurate tech out of bimmerforums than him. Like every other letter that gets posted in Roundel griping about dipsticks, runflats, and iDrive (which I was able to master in under 5 minutes, literally), he seems extremely ignorantly biased against anything past the E39 or E46.

Am I a BMW enthusiast? Heck yeah. Do I work on my cars? Most of the time, unless they're within warranty or maintenance plan. Do I follow the BMW maintenance schedule? Heck yeah.

Michael.