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Decision time - what anti seize for spark plugs in Aluminum Honda engine?
- Thread starter JHZR2
- Start date
Yeah if it's not a big hassle due to transverse engine with the intake blocking the rear bank, but after the first set of plugs, if I'm going to get access and loosen them anyway, would also take them out to look at, and might as well put new plugs in while I'm at it.
I use very little Nickel A/S around the threads, and smooth the AnitSeize into the threads with my fingers.
If the plugs came out too weird, I spray just a little WD-40 into the plug hole to clean the threads. Of course torque to the very lower end of the range.
Looks like you are doing a top notch job. As I recall, the 1-2-3 bank on your Oddy requires a little patience.
If the plugs came out too weird, I spray just a little WD-40 into the plug hole to clean the threads. Of course torque to the very lower end of the range.
Looks like you are doing a top notch job. As I recall, the 1-2-3 bank on your Oddy requires a little patience.
FWIW, I've used nickle anti seize on both of my J Series motors at one time or another. I've sort of sworn it off for the next plug changes. Reason is, the last time I pulled the plugs from the 2003 Accord a couple of them came out hard. (Regular silver Permatex)
I mean
'Ohh crap, this is either going to break off in the hole or the threads are coming out with it'....hard. It felt a lot like galled threads, the plug would break loose and start to spin fine and then tighten up like I was fighting a giant with a pair of vice grips hanging on to the plug threads.
I seriously thought I was in for pulling the head while I was slowly wrenching out a couple of them.
Once they came out, I brushed the threads off with a wire brush, ran a few of the used ones back down the hole, looked in the hole, everything was fine. I was shocked.
The Accord has no AS on the set that is in there now, and I honestly can't remember if there is on the Acura or not. I think those went in with AS on them, but they're not due to be replaced for a while.
I mean
'Ohh crap, this is either going to break off in the hole or the threads are coming out with it'....hard. It felt a lot like galled threads, the plug would break loose and start to spin fine and then tighten up like I was fighting a giant with a pair of vice grips hanging on to the plug threads.
I seriously thought I was in for pulling the head while I was slowly wrenching out a couple of them.
Once they came out, I brushed the threads off with a wire brush, ran a few of the used ones back down the hole, looked in the hole, everything was fine. I was shocked.
The Accord has no AS on the set that is in there now, and I honestly can't remember if there is on the Acura or not. I think those went in with AS on them, but they're not due to be replaced for a while.
Plugs came out perfectly fine in our CRV with 85k on them. I put the new ones back in dry.
Plugs with 63k coming out of our f150 came out crunchy and stiff and feeling a little bounded … I put a very conservative smidge of grey antiseize on them. Torque spec is something surprisingly low like 13 ft pounds - I did not reduce torque due to the a/s.
Plugs with 63k coming out of our f150 came out crunchy and stiff and feeling a little bounded … I put a very conservative smidge of grey antiseize on them. Torque spec is something surprisingly low like 13 ft pounds - I did not reduce torque due to the a/s.
I just did a valve adjustment/VC gaskets/plug tube seals/ VC bolt grommets on my 2012 odyssey with 161k miles.
When reinstalling I used a small dab of gray bottle permatex aluminum antiseize in a similar spot as your pics. Torqued to 13ft/lbs
My brain was so busy... That job is no fun.
A few of my valves were .006in above spec
Link https://www.odyclub.com/threads/my-162k-valve-adjustment-experience.377822/#post-2593024
When reinstalling I used a small dab of gray bottle permatex aluminum antiseize in a similar spot as your pics. Torqued to 13ft/lbs
My brain was so busy... That job is no fun.
A few of my valves were .006in above spec
Link https://www.odyclub.com/threads/my-162k-valve-adjustment-experience.377822/#post-2593024
No one from NGK is going to put a hand on your shoulder when you give the plug some tough love next time. Also very few people running Iridium plugs will be the person pulling the plug they just replaced in 100,000 miles from now. This discussion has been on Bitog a lot. Almost all of it is a moot point.
If you hate puckering up when you pull a plug put some anti seize on it and sleep well for the next 10 years. If you pull plugs earlier than 100,000 miles such as on turbos put some anti seize on it. If you like running copper plugs like grandpa did then good luck.
If you hate puckering up when you pull a plug put some anti seize on it and sleep well for the next 10 years. If you pull plugs earlier than 100,000 miles such as on turbos put some anti seize on it. If you like running copper plugs like grandpa did then good luck.
JHZR2
Staff member
Well I’ll say I didn’t like the feel of the original ones coming out. It took a lot of force for what was a 16 ft-lb torque spec. And it was crunchy coming out.
I figured the oil from chasing the threads might serve to protect a bit. Nickel anti-seize has a higher solids content, which I’m not a big fan of… but it seemed like a better option than copper. I don’t think anyone has an actual answer.
the plugs on this version of van are super easy. Access with a socket with two extensions. Nothing to it. I spent more time figuring out about anti seize than I did changing the plugs.
That was the reason I used it, I'm just not sure it helps in these for some reason. It is a butt-puckering exercise either way I think. LOL
Honda, in general, does a pretty good job of leaving the rear bank plugs accessible. I know on my Sedan chassis cars, there are indents in the firewall that seem to be there solely so you can get the coils out of the holes and wrenches in.
Giving it some thought. The next time I'm in there doing plugs I think I'll make an adapter for the air blower on the 3d printer. If I run across another one that breaks loose and gets tight, I'm going to shoot a pile of PB blaster down the hole and pressurize it and try to force the PB blaster down into the threads.
Going to smoke like crazy if a bunch of it gets in the chamber......but that's got to be better than the stress of head movies of coiled bits of aluminum coming out the hole with the plug.
Going to smoke like crazy if a bunch of it gets in the chamber......but that's got to be better than the stress of head movies of coiled bits of aluminum coming out the hole with the plug.
Interesting comment! You've implied that torque values are not changed by AS on the threads, but rather only on the washer (or tapered seat, for that kind of plug).
It makes sense. Do you have a source, or is this just a common-sense sort of thing?
I almost always use a small dab of AS on the threads.
If I am going through the hours of work (many hours on some of my cars) to get to the plugs, I am not really inclined to “crack and tighten”.
For the same labor, the exact same labor, I can install new plugs.
I would rather change the parts more often - than break them free, keep them in service, and spend just as much time on labor. The labor cost/time on some of my cars is quite high. Spark plug change on the MBs is an 8 hour proposition, for example.
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It's just my personal opinion, based on my own common sense deduction.
For example, while reading the Tech Authority service documentation for various Mopar vehicles, I've noticed that some of the torque values seem inconsistent. In some cases, it appears they are not even precisely calculated but are simply there to ensure two components stay together. For instance, the torque specification for the same intake manifold bolt on a Pentastar engine is 72 inch-lb in a Charger V6, but in a Jeep Wrangler with the same engine and lower intake, it's 106 inch-lb. This discrepancy is just an example and slightly off-topic.
Typically, torque values are designed for steel bolts, factoring in the amount of torque required to overcome thread friction, bolt stretching, and clamping force. In most cases, torque specifications serve as a safety net to prevent technicians from over-torquing what they are tightening.
In the case of spark plugs with washers, the torque specification ensures the washer is crushed properly without over-torquing the plug.
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The Honda spark plug antiseize conundrum is a fun hair splitter.
Both NGK and Denso say not to use antiseize. Denso goes further and says their spark plugs will come pre-lubricated for applications that need it (LPG powered forklifts are used as an example).
However, Honda says to use a small amount of antiseize and the specified torque seems to account for the antiseize:
13 ft lbs compared to 18-21.6 per NGK and 15-22 per Denso for the above example.
So I think the only thing that matters is that you reduce the torque if you choose to use antiseize.
Both NGK and Denso say not to use antiseize. Denso goes further and says their spark plugs will come pre-lubricated for applications that need it (LPG powered forklifts are used as an example).
However, Honda says to use a small amount of antiseize and the specified torque seems to account for the antiseize:
13 ft lbs compared to 18-21.6 per NGK and 15-22 per Denso for the above example.
So I think the only thing that matters is that you reduce the torque if you choose to use antiseize.
I use and prefer nickel but if I didn't have it on hand copper never caused any trouble either. 13 ft.lb is plenty for threads with anti seize, in a four season climate the OE thread coating/plating on the plugs is pretty much less effective long term under certain conditions like lots of short trips in cold winter weather, this will cause rusting of the threads from the combustion chamber side. Like the guy in this thread, notice he has NGK with the plating..
Reading stuck 75k NGK Iridium plugs in 3.0 V6 Honda.
These were installed by a trusted friend/mechanic at his shop during the first timing belt replacement. Almost every plug was welded in, tight coming out the entire way. I have changed plugs that have been in cars for 15+ years and 150,000 miles... This was my worst removal experience...
bobistheoilguy.com
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I don’t know about Honda but on my BMW N54 the mfg states do NOT use anti seize.
There was a long drawn out forum thread by where the OP had broken plugs during installation and having torqued with a fancy wrench from work to the correct 17 ft lbs with anti seize.
The OP had integrity and truly wanted to know if the anti seize caused the plugs to break so he had the wrench calibrated.
In the end thr OP concluded user error and when the mfg says not to use anti seize because of the plating on the plugs, that it’s not beneficial to do so. The other moral of the story is a torque wrench is accurate down to 20% of its upper range.
JHZR2
Staff member
Rust is one of the things I have to conclude is on the threads of the OE plugs.
The actual spark gap is perfect. Zero erosion and quite clean. I do feel like perhaps I should have used more, but then again there is conflicting guidance. I figure less is more, it will smear around, but avoid the tip. But I’m honestly not sure if best practice is to actually coat all the way around??
Well the conundrum here is that NGK says not to, but Honda says to use it.
I have torque wrenches where the torque range is past the lower 20%.
The NGK box also says to install 1/4 turn past bottoming out. When I applied torque, I found that they turned between 1/8-1/4 before the wrench clicked.
Coat all the threads with a very thin coating. Yes, that is rust on those threads.
JHZR2
Staff member
Well I only did that little patch on each.
I figured it was a hybrid between no and yes
Would it be worthwhile to pull and re-coat? This engine is surprisingly easy to change plugs. There isn’t an access issue for any plug with two short extensions.
I literally spent more time trying to decide if I should or shouldn’t use anti seize than I did on that job.
Or do so at 50k in?
