Death of a 3MZ-FE!!! Sludge pics inside!

[blackman777]

Originally Posted By: electrolover
You tell em hey you never changed the oil and you need a new engine and they call you a liar and say they changed it every 3k. And then still lie when they are looking at the sludged up motor.
This is the same attitude Toyota had in the late 90s/early 2000s when they had customers with dead engines at 15,000, 20,000, 25,000 miles. So Toyota voided the engine warranty and one-quarter million customers lost $5000 in repairs.

As for the "My wife needs to be back at work on Monday" I would have said, "I'm sorry but we don't have a transmission yet. It may not be finished but I'd be happy to drive you to the airport." NOTHING is more annoying than demanding customers. I didn't create the problem so back off.

Of as one of my fellow workers says: "Your poor planning does not suddenly become my emergency."

 

[wiswind]

The 3MZFE is built upon the 1MZFE technology.......a little bigger but the same basic design.

As mentioned, Toyota made some updates to the 1MZFE engine over the years.

Improved PCV......they went from the push in type PCV valve to a metal threaded version.
They also improved the drain-back of oil from between the baffle in the top of the valve covers.
A clogged PCV system is a sure way to a Sludge issue.
I have a 2003 Sienna that has the metal PCV valve.

mr-diy.....if you have not already.....(I'm betting you have), a periodic check of the PCV valve in the rear valve cover of your '98 Sienna is a good idea.

As mentioned, Improved oil passages.

Toyota used the 1MZFE engine in MANY MANY Toyota and Lexus vehicles.
Only a very small percentage developed the problem.
HOWEVER.....percentages don't mean anything if it is YOUR engine with the problem.


As for the vehicle in question. The people bought it @ 100K miles and the previous maintenance history is unknown.
They said that they had the oil changed every 3K miles....
They HAD a shop do it.....and we don't know if it was a honest group or not.....so we don't know what oil was used.....or even if it was changed or not (vs just being charged for work not done).

As for warranty work, normally dealerships get paid by the OEM at a LOWER rate than normal repair work......Warranty work is not as much $$$ in the dealerships pocket as repair.
This does open the door for a less than honest dealership staff to try to wiggle out of warranty work.

The normal is for labor to be charged based upon a "standard repair Time".......there is a Warranty rate (paid by the manufacturer) and a repair rate that the customer is charged.....
The technician is normally paid on the same time basis, so the technician also makes LESS money on warranty work.

I have had vehicles that did not have a reputation for being reliable and gotten great service out of them.
I have also had very poor service done at dealerships and other repair facilities.
I have also had GREAT service done at dealerships and other repair facilities.
I change my own oil, so I know what and when as far as that goes.

Most people don't understand oil beyond that it needs to be changed.
There are great places to have it done....and not so great.
Price is king.......and a place that is $5 cheaper looks good to someone to whom "oil is oil".....so there is incentive to cut corners (and be less than honest).

As has been mentioned, most any OEM has had its problems.
Toyota had a learning experience and hopefully is better for it.
I bought my Toyota outside of any warranty coverage, so any problems would be on my check book.

 

[KitaCam]

All the Toyo dealers here in south Florida I've been to have internet coupon oil changes for $19.95...I'm sure that they do this to identify all the other work that could/should be done...hey, everybody's gotta make a buck....

 

[wiswind]

Kit,
Yes, that is a good way to get more work......get them in the door.
If they are honest (and there ARE honest people out there) it is doing owners a service as folks tend to leave things go until something breaks. So a look-see by someone who knows what they are looking at is a very good idea.
My local shop knows to expect to see me in spring as I use my vehicle for my church youth group....and I take it in for a good going over before I take my youth on a long mission trip.

I will further SPECULATE that what killed the engine in this thread was not just sludge...but the fact that the oil pick-up got blocked and the engine was starved of oil.
It could well have been going along just fine, loaded with sludge (much as that makes most of us on this forum sick) for many miles until the pickup became blocked.


I was talking with one of the kids at my church about the routine things that I was doing to my Sienna and a older man interrupted with a smug look on his face "I don't have to do anything with my car, I just buy a Toyota".
I replied......"What I'm talking about is routine maintenance, I tend to keep my vehicles MUCH longer than you do."

 

[The_Eric]

Originally Posted By: wiswind

I will further SPECULATE that what killed the engine in this thread was not just sludge...but the fact that the oil pick-up got blocked and the engine was starved of oil.
It could well have been going along just fine, loaded with sludge (much as that makes most of us on this forum sick) for many miles until the pickup became blocked.




Since the pickup tube was blocked and the crank got so hot that it burned off the muck on the counterweights, I'm 100% sure that's what killed this engine.

I may have forgotten this in my original post, but they did report that the red oil light came on before it died.

 

[antiqueshell]

With regards to those "owners" "claiming that they changed the oil every 3k...

As Judge Judy likes to say:

"Liar, liar, pants on fire!".

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
With regards to those "owners" "claiming that they changed the oil every 3k...

As Judge Judy likes to say:

"Liar, liar, pants on fire!".


LOL, I doubt the engine could sludge that badly with 3K changes even if the PCV was totally blocked... PCV generally plug up due to lack of oil change...

 

[The_Eric]

Originally Posted By: wiswind
The 3MZFE is built upon the 1MZFE technology.......a little bigger but the same basic design.

As mentioned, Toyota made some updates to the 1MZFE engine over the years.

Improved PCV......they went from the push in type PCV valve to a metal threaded version.
They also improved the drain-back of oil from between the baffle in the top of the valve covers.
A clogged PCV system is a sure way to a Sludge issue.
I have a 2003 Sienna that has the metal PCV valve.


It's interesting that you mention that. The original engine had the screw in type, but the replacement came with a push in type already installed... Twice. The first engine that was shipped to us had the wrong mounting pad for the output shaft support bearing. I noticed it then, and mentioned it during the conversation with the re-builder when I called about the incorrect mount pad. They took note and shipped us the correct engine. When it arrived, it still had the wrong style installed. Oh well.

 

[Cujet]

None of my engines ever look like that. But, I use M1 and change it regularly.

 

[JohnnyZ52]

Interesting thread... I, and many of my friends, have owned Toyota Camrys/Corollas from 1995-2005 years and none have failed prematurely. At 200K+, I don't think this is an unexpected time to look for a new vehicle, personally. In fact, given that there was likely poor maintenance done, I think the mileage this car was put through should be seen as outstanding!

When I was used car shopping a little over a year ago, I read that the Chrysler small V6 engine they put out was the most unreliable engine on the market (the one used in Sebrings, Stratus, etc.). I heard different reasonings behind it, but I believe it was PCV valve related...there was many many known complaints from customers that Chrysler would not help who had minimal miles on their vehicles. Some people also went through 3 engines in the first 100K miles. Lots of horror stories with that particular engine.

I look forward to seeing what today's engines come to be known as in the future.

And I agree with Wiswind...where you get your oil changed makes a big difference. The Toyota dealership I purchased my Camry from did an excellent job, but every other place I've gone I've been less than impressed. With the coupons given to me when I bought my car, I think my oil changes were $19.99 or so, but $40.00 normal price. Still, considering how often one needs an oil change, it's well worth it. (4-5x a year or less, maybe $100 annually for peace of mind)

 

[JohnnyZ52]

Oh, and to everyone's points about Volks. and Toyota escaping warranty claims...every single company tries to get out of it. I've heard horror stories from each (the Chrysler engine issue I mentioned previously being the worst).

 

[blackman777]

Originally Posted By: Cujobob
I read that the Chrysler small V6 engine they put out was the most unreliable engine on the market (the one used in Sebrings, Stratus, etc.).

I have that engine. It has given me many reliable miles, and so to did my previous Chryslers. How DARE you talk nasty stuff about...

No actually I don't care. A car's just an appliance. Nothing more.
Besides I had the Mitsubishi V6 (was installed in Avengers and Eclipses).

 

[nitehawk55]

Just wondering how much oil is in the sump , Oil pan looks tiny .
That is one thing I like about my 3.0 Duratec's , they hold about 6 Qt. which I feel with any engine design is a good thing .

Good Job Eric , you sound like a good mechanic who knows his stuff and does his best to help get customers going

 

[nitehawk55]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: Cujobob
I read that the Chrysler small V6 engine they put out was the most unreliable engine on the market (the one used in Sebrings, Stratus, etc.).

I have that engine. It has given me many reliable miles, and so to did my previous Chryslers. How DARE you talk nasty stuff about...

No actually I don't care. A car's just an appliance. Nothing more.
Besides I had the Mitsubishi V6 (was installed in Avengers and Eclipses).


The 2.7 V6 was supposed to be a bad engine with starved engine bearing due to plugged oil feed but many of those engines have gone a long way trouble free .

 

[volk06]

Originally Posted By: nitehawk55
Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: Cujobob
I read that the Chrysler small V6 engine they put out was the most unreliable engine on the market (the one used in Sebrings, Stratus, etc.).

I have that engine. It has given me many reliable miles, and so to did my previous Chryslers. How DARE you talk nasty stuff about...

No actually I don't care. A car's just an appliance. Nothing more.
Besides I had the Mitsubishi V6 (was installed in Avengers and Eclipses).


The 2.7 V6 was supposed to be a bad engine with starved engine bearing due to plugged oil feed but many of those engines have gone a long way trouble free .


I had a '02 stratus with the 2.7L. I loved that car, it was quick, handled good at higher speeds, had a good factory sound system, great in the snow, returned decent mpg.... this was until it blew a head gasket at 112K. Someday I'll own another stratus

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
With regards to those "owners" "claiming that they changed the oil every 3k...

As Judge Judy likes to say:

"Liar, liar, pants on fire!".


Exactly. We'll likely never know the truth.

I know of this engine in two cars around here, one is an older 2006 Magnum with high miles and still running great.

This engine simply did not tolerate abuse well. If carefully maintained by me it would run forever.

 

[sciphi]

Ouch! So they got a new transmission out of your shop also. I guess it's a tax write-off, at the least. The rest of the car looks to be in okay shape. It'll make another 100k miles, even with the abuse the current owners heaped onto it.

 

[Vikas]

That family must have a great credit card, huh?

 

[The_Eric]

Originally Posted By: nitehawk55
Just wondering how much oil is in the sump , Oil pan looks tiny .
That is one thing I like about my 3.0 Duratec's , they hold about 6 Qt. which I feel with any engine design is a good thing .

Good Job Eric , you sound like a good mechanic who knows his stuff and does his best to help get customers going

I've definitely got a lot to learn! FYI there are 5 quarts of 5w-30 in the sump. The reason the pan looks so small is because it's a two part pan. The upper section of the pan is still attached to the block in the pictures.

 

[The_Eric]

Originally Posted By: sciphi
Ouch! So they got a new transmission out of your shop also. I guess it's a tax write-off, at the least. The rest of the car looks to be in okay shape. It'll make another 100k miles, even with the abuse the
current owners heaped onto it.



Yeah, it's in decent shape although a bit dirty/junky inside. Typical of what I've seen of young women/soccer mom owners.

Originally Posted By: Vikas
That family must have a great credit card, huh?


I know some of it went to that but they talked like they had to look for other money, but yeah, I'm sure it took a hit.