Death of a 3MZ-FE!!! Sludge pics inside!

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Oldasco
What's the tipping point moneywise on putting a remanufactured engine in a 10 year old car or dumping the car? It's probably easily at least $5000 to install a remanufactured or rebuilt engine in the car, less for an engine from bone yard, but why put that kinda money in a poorly maintained car that will probably need its poorly maintained tranny redone next month. Maybe dump this car instead of doing engine job!


I really depends on the condition of the rest of the car, and how long one plans to keep it. With well over 200,000 miles, one could say that that the life left in the vehicle overall is somewhat limited. On the other hand, if there are enough other new parts (struts, brakes, etc) that would make a remanufactured engine worth it, one might could get another hundred thousand out of the car.

I guess you'd have to look at it as a cost/mile thing. $5,000 for an engine and rebuilt trans (5k for the engine alone sounds high I think) for another maybe 100,000 miles of life. That's $0.05/mile in terms of cost. What's a similar car going to cost? A new Highlander at $35,000, with an expected life of 250,000 miles? That's $0.14/mile, not counting interest paid due to any financing.

Driving the current one longer, obviously higly dependent on the condition of the rest of the vehicle, may be the less expensive option.

 

[skellyman]

I know very little of it's service record, only that it had a Kendall sticker on it and an Firestone branded oil filter.

Our shop uses Kendall pretty much exclusively, along with Wix/NAPA Gold filters. So the replacement engine got Kendall semi synthetic 5w-30 and a NAPA Gold 1348 filter.
This will be posted in 6 months as gospel that Kendall oil is junk.

 

[The_Eric]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
I think what you're talking about in the bottom end pic comes from the crank not having any oil supply and getting really hot. Notice how the counter weights are cooked clean and dry?


How did the walls of the block have "cooked" areas between the washed area from the con-rod oil sprays, and "clean" areas where the oil wash occurs from the crank throws ?

There's no external heat in that area, no friction, but gummy stuff, between lines of washed areas.


I misread what you said. I thought you were talking about the crankshaft itself. How the further away you look from the oil supply, the more baked looking the counter weights and connecting rod big ends look.

To answer your question about the side of the block, I don't know.



Originally Posted By: skellyman
I know very little of it's service record, only that it had a Kendall sticker on it and an Firestone branded oil filter.

Our shop uses Kendall pretty much exclusively, along with Wix/NAPA Gold filters. So the replacement engine got Kendall semi synthetic 5w-30 and a NAPA Gold 1348 filter.
This will be posted in 6 months as gospel that Kendall oil is junk.


That certainly wasn't my intent.

 

[LeakySeals]

Originally Posted By: skellyman
I know very little of it's service record, only that it had a Kendall sticker on it and an Firestone branded oil filter.

Our shop uses Kendall pretty much exclusively, along with Wix/NAPA Gold filters. So the replacement engine got Kendall semi synthetic 5w-30 and a NAPA Gold 1348 filter.
This will be posted in 6 months as gospel that Kendall oil is junk.

I can't speak for the oil but I can speak to the filter. Myself and others have experienced problems using Napa Gold filters. There is a thread about it. In my case something went wrong inside the filter causing sudden loss of oil flow, red oil pressure light and rapping. By pure luck I had a spare classic in the trunk so I was able to swap filters on the side of the road. I survived it. This was NOT plugged media. The OCI was barely 3k and the failure was sudden and immediate. I suspect there is a defect with the bypass mechanism on this filter. Maybe you get it, maybe you don't. No complaints of any other Napa, so issues appear to be a Napa Gold only. Of course, I'm snake-bit on Wix now because I don't know what parts like the bypass are shared between filters. Its the only problem I've ever experienced with an oil filter in 30 years. And I've used most of them, no loyalty here.

 

[uart]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Myself and others have experienced problems using Napa Gold filters. There is a thread about it. In my case something went wrong inside the filter causing sudden loss of oil flow, red oil pressure light and rapping. By pure luck I had a spare classic in the trunk so I was able to swap filters on the side of the road. I survived it. This was NOT plugged media. The OCI was barely 3k and the failure was sudden and immediate. I suspect there is a defect with the bypass mechanism on this filter. Maybe you get it, maybe you don't.
Did you ever get around to cutting that filter open? It would be interesting to know exactly what caused the failure.

 

[blackman777]

230,000 miles is short compared to almost 400,000 for my Saturn, 360,000 for my friend's Honda Accord, or 360,000 for my dad's old Dodge. Any primarily highway-driven engine that dies before 300,000 is not a good engine IMHO. (Of course it's possible the customer never changed the oil. We don't know.)

And Toyota does have a known engine problem. They didn't become part of an FTC investigation and lose a class-action lawsuit for no reason. They had customers with engines dying at 20-30,000 miles and Toyota voided the engine warranty, thus sticking customers with $5000 repair bills.

Not only is that poor engine design, but also lousy customer service.
IMHO

 

[zerosoma]

Neglected oil changes caused a plugged PCV valve which in turn introduced tons of moisture into the oil, therefore upon cooling created an uncanny amount of sludge.

It hurts to look at.

 

[INDYMAC]

Originally Posted By: zerosoma
Neglected oil changes caused a plugged PCV valve which in turn introduced tons of moisture into the oil, therefore upon cooling created an uncanny amount of sludge.

It hurts to look at.


I agree.

 

[The_Eric]

As an update, after road testing the vehicle, it was found to have a leaking transmission pump seal. Possibly caused by my boss trying to remove the torque converter. For whatever reason it was stuck in there. Now I've got the job of pulling the transmission to fix the leak. First I get to r and r the engine, now the tranny.

 

[antiqueshell]

Time to get rid of it. Tell "The Boss" to unload this heap.

 

[blackman777]

Originally Posted By: The_Eric
leaking transmission pump seal. Possibly caused by my boss trying to remove the torque converter.
I bet this won't be mentioned to the customer. Instead the dealership will try to pretend the leak "just happened" and charge for it, even though the dealer is to blame. I had a Dodge dealer rip the handle off my door, and then stick me with the $400 repair bill. I had instructed them "The handle doesn't work. You need to reach inside to open the door." The only way that handle could come off is if the mechanic put his feet on the door & pulled with all his might.

BTW if this engine was totally cleaned of sludge, would it run again?

 

[rcy]

Warning to new BITOG'ers who might be reading this thread....

Without the owner of the vehicle here to state he/she changed the oil every 5000 miles or every 25000 miles or changed the PCV valve or never changed the PCV valve etc. etc., the majority of the preceeding posts are pure speculation and/or the poster yawping on Toyota because it's the 'in' thing to do and/or the poster, for some reason, is angry at the import manufacturers.

You will find a lot this on BITOG. Please read with a grain of salt.

 

[Quest]

Originally Posted By: rcy
Warning to new BITOG'ers who might be reading this thread....

Without the owner of the vehicle here to state he/she changed the oil every 5000 miles or every 25000 miles or changed the PCV valve or never changed the PCV valve etc. etc., the majority of the preceeding posts are pure speculation and/or the poster yawping on Toyota because it's the 'in' thing to do and/or the poster, for some reason, is angry at the import manufacturers.

You will find a lot this on BITOG. Please read with a grain of salt.


hear! hear!

Q.

 

[blackman777]

On this specific engine, it's speculation. Could have been customer neglect. BUT we also know that Toyota had a problem with failing sludge engines. In the late 90s and early 2000s they had customers with engines dying at 20-30,000 miles and Toyota voided the engine warranty, thus sticking customers with $5000 repair bills.

Not only is that poor engine design but also lousy customer service. There was never any excuse for why Toyota would void a customer's warranty if the engine died after just 20-30,000 miles. IMHO.

 

[DragRace]

Originally Posted By: rcy
Warning to new BITOG'ers who might be reading this thread....

Without the owner of the vehicle here to state he/she changed the oil every 5000 miles or every 25000 miles or changed the PCV valve or never changed the PCV valve etc. etc., the majority of the preceeding posts are pure speculation and/or the poster yawping on Toyota because it's the 'in' thing to do and/or the poster, for some reason, is angry at the import manufacturers.

You will find a lot this on BITOG. Please read with a grain of salt.

 

[lexus114]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
On this specific engine, it's speculation. Could have been customer neglect. BUT we also know that Toyota had a problem with failing sludge engines. In the late 90s and early 2000s they had customers with engines dying at 20-30,000 miles and Toyota voided the engine warranty, thus sticking customers with $5000 repair bills.

Not only is that poor engine design but also lousy customer service. There was never any excuse for why Toyota would void a customer's warranty if the engine died after just 20-30,000 miles. IMHO.




Dont be a hater man. Haters only make fools out of themselves.

 

[weebl]

Originally Posted By: hypervish
No, the 3MZ-FE is not a sludge monster.


+1 Prior to making a decision to extend my OCI on this engine from 5,000 miles to 7,500 miles, I gathered as much information to either prove/disprove that the 3MZ-FE was a sludge monster like its predecessor, the 1MZ-FE. There is no evidence to support that it is, as occurrences of sludging aren't any more common than any other engine without sludge issues. Sludge on these seem to always be caused by lack of maintence, or failure of something else contaminating the oil (i.e. coolant).

At over 4,000 miles on my current fill, the oil is only slightly darkened.

 

[The_Eric]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
leaking transmission pump seal. Possibly caused by my boss trying to remove the torque converter.
I bet this won't be mentioned to the customer. Instead the dealership will try to pretend the leak "just happened" and charge for it, even though the dealer is to blame. I had a Dodge dealer rip the handle off my door, and then stick me with the $400 repair bill. I had instructed them "The handle doesn't work. You need to reach inside to open the door." The only way that handle could come off is if the mechanic put his feet on the door & pulled with all his might.

BTW if this engine was totally cleaned of sludge, would it run again?


We're not a dealer, just a small independent shop. Actually the boss did tell the customer that we weren't able to pull the converter to replace the seal.

Well, what ended up happening was the bushing that the converter rides in seized to the hub of the converter and spun inside of the pump housing, ruining it. This was done BEFORE it even made it to our shop - as evidenced by the fact that we couldn't pull the converter during the engine install.

So now we are putting in a re-man'ed transmission too. Wow, just wow. How's that for bad luck?

 

[Oldasco]

Bad luck comes in threes...maybe do a complete brake job too before taking car out for road test after doing the engine and transmission work!

 

[blackman777]

When my car had a $3000 trans repair, I junked it and used te money as downpayment for another one. Your customer ought to do the same. IMHO
Originally Posted By: lexus114
Originally Posted By: blackman777
.....lousy customer service. There was never any excuse for why Toyota would void a customer's warranty if the engine died after just 20-30,000 miles. IMHO.
Dont be a hater man. Haters only make fools out of themselves.
Put yourself in the customer's shoes. You just bought a new 2000 Toyota truck or large car, and a mere 24,000 miles later the engine dies. Even though you religiously changed the oil every 7000 miles (and the dealer has records of each change), Toyota Corporation refuses to give you a new engine as required by their engine warranty. Instead they blame YOU the customer saying you didn't change the oil. And stick you with a $5000 bill for a new engine.

What emotion would you feel in that situation?
Hint: It starts with an H.
I really don't see how you could feel anything else unless you lack sympathy for these victims. (shrug). Whatever. It's just my humble opinion.