Oh sorry, didn't notice that you live in Canada. If you're strongly leaning towards just using an oil to try to clean the engine, I would give the PP a shot. No need to mix in Maxlife.
De-sludging a 2000 Corolla with a PP/MaxLife blend
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BTW, another point to mention: the PP wasn't chosen because because of any marketing hype. My next oil change will likely be the one that winds up being my fall and possibly all of my winter OCI (I don't put nearly as many km on my cars in the winter as I do in the summer).
Between the fact that Canadian winters are brutal, that (according to the numbers I've seen) up to 90% of engine wear is at start up, and that synthetic oil, because of its lower pour point compared to any dino, can get into a cold engine faster and thereby reduce cold start wear, the net result is less wear in cold temps. Less engine wear = longer engine life. Simple enough for me, and reason enough to switch to synthetic. Anything else is gravy.
In the case of this particular gravy (relevant to the topic), the consensus (not marketing hype, but research) seems to be that any synthetic oil will prevent and help remove existing sludge better than dino. With that in mind, I set out to pick up a synthetic and I had no particular brand in mind as I've had no experience with any of them. I figured I'd probably come home with Supertech; where its Walmarts inhouse brand, and where the UOA's I've seen here had convinced me that its good enough for the OCI I envisioned on it, that was what I set out to pick up for my next oil change.
Supertech Synthetic was $28 for a 4L jug. PP was the rollback of the day, at $19 a jug and about $1 more than the leading brand name dinos they had, with the exception of Castrol GTX, which was rolled back as well to $11.
No marketing hype needed to convince me to buy the PP. At $10 less than the cheapest alternative synthetic (Supertech), none was needed.
-Spyder
Between the fact that Canadian winters are brutal, that (according to the numbers I've seen) up to 90% of engine wear is at start up, and that synthetic oil, because of its lower pour point compared to any dino, can get into a cold engine faster and thereby reduce cold start wear, the net result is less wear in cold temps. Less engine wear = longer engine life. Simple enough for me, and reason enough to switch to synthetic. Anything else is gravy.
In the case of this particular gravy (relevant to the topic), the consensus (not marketing hype, but research) seems to be that any synthetic oil will prevent and help remove existing sludge better than dino. With that in mind, I set out to pick up a synthetic and I had no particular brand in mind as I've had no experience with any of them. I figured I'd probably come home with Supertech; where its Walmarts inhouse brand, and where the UOA's I've seen here had convinced me that its good enough for the OCI I envisioned on it, that was what I set out to pick up for my next oil change.
Supertech Synthetic was $28 for a 4L jug. PP was the rollback of the day, at $19 a jug and about $1 more than the leading brand name dinos they had, with the exception of Castrol GTX, which was rolled back as well to $11.
No marketing hype needed to convince me to buy the PP. At $10 less than the cheapest alternative synthetic (Supertech), none was needed.
-Spyder
True meep, but there are also time, tool, and experience constraints involved too (and the fact that this is my daily driver, so I need it running every day). So far leaning toward straight PP on a new mobil 1 filter. I'm on the fence at how long to run it for. 7,500 km would be very conservative for a good synthetic & filter combo on a clean engine. In this particular case, if it does any amount of what I'm hoping it'll do then I'll probably change both out after 5,000 km.
And 1,000 km before I do it I may take another poster's recommendation and Seafoam the PP before changing it out (depending on how much difference I see on the fill hole and cap).
Then go from there.
-Spyder
And 1,000 km before I do it I may take another poster's recommendation and Seafoam the PP before changing it out (depending on how much difference I see on the fill hole and cap).
Then go from there.
-Spyder
Originally Posted By: Bill In Utah
Spend more time looking and fixing the PCV system and then do normal length conventional OCIs with any 5w-30 oil and filter
I have a feeling that your BAFFLES in your Valve Cover are slightly clogged, you need to make sure these are clean so your engine can breath easier, if this is not taken care of you will continue to build up junk inside your engine.
Quote:
towards the end use some MMO (up to a quart) around 500-1000 miles BEFORE the oil change. Repeat until everything is clear.
Going to syn is NOT going to do anything for you. FIXING the problem will..
Also take photos of what you are seeing and post them here!
+1
Spend more time looking and fixing the PCV system and then do normal length conventional OCIs with any 5w-30 oil and filter
I have a feeling that your BAFFLES in your Valve Cover are slightly clogged, you need to make sure these are clean so your engine can breath easier, if this is not taken care of you will continue to build up junk inside your engine.
Quote:
towards the end use some MMO (up to a quart) around 500-1000 miles BEFORE the oil change. Repeat until everything is clear.
Going to syn is NOT going to do anything for you. FIXING the problem will..
Also take photos of what you are seeing and post them here!
+1
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Quote:
that (according to the numbers I've seen) up to 90% of engine wear is at start up,
You do realize that this is a play on words. It effectively says that 90% of all wear occurs during the warm up cycle of the engine. Start up is official nomenclature for anything other than "steady state". It's the first 20 minutes of operation. It is on a curve. It doesn't refer to the first few seconds of operation.
That's not to say that good cold flow properties aren't a good thing, just that the significance of any alterations to the curve (which will be as long regardless of product) might be less than you imagine if that image is based on the marketing slogan.
that (according to the numbers I've seen) up to 90% of engine wear is at start up,
You do realize that this is a play on words. It effectively says that 90% of all wear occurs during the warm up cycle of the engine. Start up is official nomenclature for anything other than "steady state". It's the first 20 minutes of operation. It is on a curve. It doesn't refer to the first few seconds of operation.
That's not to say that good cold flow properties aren't a good thing, just that the significance of any alterations to the curve (which will be as long regardless of product) might be less than you imagine if that image is based on the marketing slogan.
Do they sell Ultra in Canada? It's supposed to clean even better than PP, but who knows.
1. Change PCV valve just in case
2. Run at least one short run with Pennzoil Ultra (3,000 mile run)
PCV in case it might be plugged or helping cause a possible sludge issue. A short run of Ultra so if it does clean some sludge, the contaminates will not overwhelm the oil and drop out of suspension defeating the purpose of running the oil in the first place.
2. Run at least one short run with Pennzoil Ultra (3,000 mile run)
PCV in case it might be plugged or helping cause a possible sludge issue. A short run of Ultra so if it does clean some sludge, the contaminates will not overwhelm the oil and drop out of suspension defeating the purpose of running the oil in the first place.
Originally Posted By: c3po
Originally Posted By: Bill In Utah
Spend more time looking and fixing the PCV system and then do normal length conventional OCIs with any 5w-30 oil and filter
I have a feeling that your BAFFLES in your Valve Cover are slightly clogged, you need to make sure these are clean so your engine can breath easier, if this is not taken care of you will continue to build up junk inside your engine.
Quote:
towards the end use some MMO (up to a quart) around 500-1000 miles BEFORE the oil change. Repeat until everything is clear.
Going to syn is NOT going to do anything for you. FIXING the problem will..
Also take photos of what you are seeing and post them here!
+1
Its a possibility I'll have to look into. For the moment though, putting aside the sludge cleaning ability of synthetic, and even the extended OCI benefit (which are presently not applicable as I'm only looking at doing maybe 5,000 km on the PP), the ability for the synthetic to get into a cold engine faster and start lubricating it earlier is reason enough for me to spend a bit more on synthetic. The only issue then comes down to one benefit I'll focus on vs cost.
I'm just going to focus on one single benefit that is not a matter of opinion, but science and fact. Its indisputable that synthetics are thinner at cold temps than dino, and therefore they get into the upper cylinder faster resulting in faster lubrication and consequently less engine wear. Less engine wear = longer engine life.
Where I live, -30C temps in winter are not unheard of. -10 to -25C would be closer to the norm. I work 12 hour shift rotations from 7am to 7 pm and 7pm to 7am. In the case of the night shift, the car's been sitting for 12 hours in the coldest part of the temperature range.
By buying shopping ahead of my next OCI, and remaining open to a variety of synthetics (I'm not stuck on one brand), I can consistently pick up a good synthetic for maybe $10 more than the cheapest leading brand name dino. I estimate I'll put 30,000 km/year on my car, max (because I do much less driving in the winter). Once the engine is cleaned up, a decent filter and synthetic will be good for 10,000 km on the conservative side.
Thus the switch, just for this one benefit (and ignoring the fact that no dino is going to hold up well in our climate for 10,000 km before it starts to break down, thus needing more frequent changes to maintain oil quality consistency), will be about $30/year. Over the 5 years I'm hoping to keep the car before I sell, it'll cost me about $150 over that 5 year period to run it on synthetic vs. dino.
For that single benefit, its worth it to me. $150 over 5 years is peanuts. If it can clean up the sludge, its a bonus. And in either case, it'll reduce future sludging.
In a warmer climate the above is not an issue. If I lived somewhere where winter temps rarely fell much below 0C (if they even got that low), I'd probably stick to dino too.
But I don't. So its worth it to me.
-Spyder
Originally Posted By: Bill In Utah
Spend more time looking and fixing the PCV system and then do normal length conventional OCIs with any 5w-30 oil and filter
I have a feeling that your BAFFLES in your Valve Cover are slightly clogged, you need to make sure these are clean so your engine can breath easier, if this is not taken care of you will continue to build up junk inside your engine.
Quote:
towards the end use some MMO (up to a quart) around 500-1000 miles BEFORE the oil change. Repeat until everything is clear.
Going to syn is NOT going to do anything for you. FIXING the problem will..
Also take photos of what you are seeing and post them here!
+1
Its a possibility I'll have to look into. For the moment though, putting aside the sludge cleaning ability of synthetic, and even the extended OCI benefit (which are presently not applicable as I'm only looking at doing maybe 5,000 km on the PP), the ability for the synthetic to get into a cold engine faster and start lubricating it earlier is reason enough for me to spend a bit more on synthetic. The only issue then comes down to one benefit I'll focus on vs cost.
I'm just going to focus on one single benefit that is not a matter of opinion, but science and fact. Its indisputable that synthetics are thinner at cold temps than dino, and therefore they get into the upper cylinder faster resulting in faster lubrication and consequently less engine wear. Less engine wear = longer engine life.
Where I live, -30C temps in winter are not unheard of. -10 to -25C would be closer to the norm. I work 12 hour shift rotations from 7am to 7 pm and 7pm to 7am. In the case of the night shift, the car's been sitting for 12 hours in the coldest part of the temperature range.
By buying shopping ahead of my next OCI, and remaining open to a variety of synthetics (I'm not stuck on one brand), I can consistently pick up a good synthetic for maybe $10 more than the cheapest leading brand name dino. I estimate I'll put 30,000 km/year on my car, max (because I do much less driving in the winter). Once the engine is cleaned up, a decent filter and synthetic will be good for 10,000 km on the conservative side.
Thus the switch, just for this one benefit (and ignoring the fact that no dino is going to hold up well in our climate for 10,000 km before it starts to break down, thus needing more frequent changes to maintain oil quality consistency), will be about $30/year. Over the 5 years I'm hoping to keep the car before I sell, it'll cost me about $150 over that 5 year period to run it on synthetic vs. dino.
For that single benefit, its worth it to me. $150 over 5 years is peanuts. If it can clean up the sludge, its a bonus. And in either case, it'll reduce future sludging.
In a warmer climate the above is not an issue. If I lived somewhere where winter temps rarely fell much below 0C (if they even got that low), I'd probably stick to dino too.
But I don't. So its worth it to me.
-Spyder
Last edited:
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Quote:
I'm just going to focus on one single benefit that is not a matter of opinion, but science and fact. Its indisputable that synthetics are thinner at cold temps than dino, and therefore they get into the upper cylinder faster resulting in faster lubrication and consequently less engine wear. Less engine wear = longer engine life.
Without protracting this out in endless qualifications, I'd research that a bit more. While a cursory analysis would tend to support this, it's not necessarily true.
Do you think a 0w-40 is thinner @ -20C than a 5w-20? Just put that on the back burner for later thought.
I'm just going to focus on one single benefit that is not a matter of opinion, but science and fact. Its indisputable that synthetics are thinner at cold temps than dino, and therefore they get into the upper cylinder faster resulting in faster lubrication and consequently less engine wear. Less engine wear = longer engine life.
Without protracting this out in endless qualifications, I'd research that a bit more. While a cursory analysis would tend to support this, it's not necessarily true.
Do you think a 0w-40 is thinner @ -20C than a 5w-20? Just put that on the back burner for later thought.
Originally Posted By: hate2work
Do they sell Ultra in Canada? It's supposed to clean even better than PP, but who knows.
They do. It was somewhere close to the $40 mark (don't recall exactly, as I only glanced at it). Whatever difference between them (real or marketing), it isn't worth paying double the price for it.
Having never used PP, I wouldn't have bought it if it wasn't on sale for $19 (or "rolled back" since Walmart supposedly doesn't have "sales"). For the purpose of this next oil change, where I'm looking at doing as little as potentially 5,000 km on it, any decent synthetic would do (I have no loyalty to any particular brand of anything).
This time it'll be PP. Next time it'll be whatever synthetic happens to be on sale and that is about on par with the rest (Supertech being my baseline acid test, but only for 8,000 km, and only that much after this engine is cleaner).
-Spyder
Do they sell Ultra in Canada? It's supposed to clean even better than PP, but who knows.
They do. It was somewhere close to the $40 mark (don't recall exactly, as I only glanced at it). Whatever difference between them (real or marketing), it isn't worth paying double the price for it.
Having never used PP, I wouldn't have bought it if it wasn't on sale for $19 (or "rolled back" since Walmart supposedly doesn't have "sales"). For the purpose of this next oil change, where I'm looking at doing as little as potentially 5,000 km on it, any decent synthetic would do (I have no loyalty to any particular brand of anything).
This time it'll be PP. Next time it'll be whatever synthetic happens to be on sale and that is about on par with the rest (Supertech being my baseline acid test, but only for 8,000 km, and only that much after this engine is cleaner).
-Spyder
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
Its a possibility I'll have to look into
Anytime you have junk in your engine or Valvetrain you need to look at the whole PCV System.
Quote:
For that single benefit, its worth it to me. $150 over 5 years is peanuts. If it can clean up the sludge, its a bonus. And in either case, it'll reduce future sludging.
It seems like you are relying on the oil to take care of your problem.
Quote:
In a warmer climate the above is not an issue
It is if the engine sees short trip driving where the condensation does not get burned off, or if you have a thermostat that is stuck open. Sometimes extending your OCI can lead to SLUDGE.
Its a possibility I'll have to look into
Anytime you have junk in your engine or Valvetrain you need to look at the whole PCV System.
Quote:
For that single benefit, its worth it to me. $150 over 5 years is peanuts. If it can clean up the sludge, its a bonus. And in either case, it'll reduce future sludging.
It seems like you are relying on the oil to take care of your problem.
Quote:
In a warmer climate the above is not an issue
It is if the engine sees short trip driving where the condensation does not get burned off, or if you have a thermostat that is stuck open. Sometimes extending your OCI can lead to SLUDGE.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
I'm just going to focus on one single benefit that is not a matter of opinion, but science and fact. Its indisputable that synthetics are thinner at cold temps than dino, and therefore they get into the upper cylinder faster resulting in faster lubrication and consequently less engine wear. Less engine wear = longer engine life.
Without protracting this out in endless qualifications, I'd research that a bit more. While a cursory analysis would tend to support this, it's not necessarily true.
Do you think a 0w-40 is thinner @ -20C than a 5w-20? Just put that on the back burner for later thought.
I prefer to keep it simpler than that: Toyota specs a 5w30 weight oil, when I decided to switch (for the first time, not just on this car, but on any car), to synthetic I compared published numbers among 5w30 oils. I didn't look at any other weights. I concluded that, marketing hype aside, they were worth the extra cost. I didn't bother this summer because pour point wasn't an issue on my first, or second oil change.
On my next it will be, and pour point taken alone, or with the other benefits of synthetics, I decided to make the switch. I'm not expecting a miracle on one synthetic oil change in terms of their alleged ability to reduce sludge, but if the PP (chosen again by price, not by marketing) can clean any of it out it'll have done more than my early OCIs on dino have.
IMHO, if you shop around a bit and buy ahead (when what you want is on sale) of the planned change, the price difference between good dino and good synthetic isn't that much. $10/OCI. That's what - 2 or 3 Happy Meals?
-Spyder
Quote:
I'm just going to focus on one single benefit that is not a matter of opinion, but science and fact. Its indisputable that synthetics are thinner at cold temps than dino, and therefore they get into the upper cylinder faster resulting in faster lubrication and consequently less engine wear. Less engine wear = longer engine life.
Without protracting this out in endless qualifications, I'd research that a bit more. While a cursory analysis would tend to support this, it's not necessarily true.
Do you think a 0w-40 is thinner @ -20C than a 5w-20? Just put that on the back burner for later thought.
I prefer to keep it simpler than that: Toyota specs a 5w30 weight oil, when I decided to switch (for the first time, not just on this car, but on any car), to synthetic I compared published numbers among 5w30 oils. I didn't look at any other weights. I concluded that, marketing hype aside, they were worth the extra cost. I didn't bother this summer because pour point wasn't an issue on my first, or second oil change.
On my next it will be, and pour point taken alone, or with the other benefits of synthetics, I decided to make the switch. I'm not expecting a miracle on one synthetic oil change in terms of their alleged ability to reduce sludge, but if the PP (chosen again by price, not by marketing) can clean any of it out it'll have done more than my early OCIs on dino have.
IMHO, if you shop around a bit and buy ahead (when what you want is on sale) of the planned change, the price difference between good dino and good synthetic isn't that much. $10/OCI. That's what - 2 or 3 Happy Meals?
-Spyder
Okay, I've got it figured out.
You WANT to run syn (due to a lot of marketing even if you don't want to admit it) so run it.
Don't use the sludge (don't want to address possible REASONS for it other than its because your engine ran conventional oils) or temps (more people around you use conventional oils then syns by a LARGE factor) and since you are not going to do extended OCIs then fine.
Just run the syn, forget fixing the possible problem and get on with it. But the FACT is IF you do have a sludge problem regardless of what oil you ran it needs to be fixed. Running some "magic" oil (which any oil is NOT) is not going to do it.
I do the same with my car. Get off work at the coldest part of the day and see well below zero F nights. If my engines last hundreds of thousands of miles using 10w-30 of yesterday's conventional oils then it will be fine using 5w-30 oils of today with NO WORRIES.
Take care, Bill
You WANT to run syn (due to a lot of marketing even if you don't want to admit it) so run it.
Don't use the sludge (don't want to address possible REASONS for it other than its because your engine ran conventional oils) or temps (more people around you use conventional oils then syns by a LARGE factor) and since you are not going to do extended OCIs then fine.
Just run the syn, forget fixing the possible problem and get on with it. But the FACT is IF you do have a sludge problem regardless of what oil you ran it needs to be fixed. Running some "magic" oil (which any oil is NOT) is not going to do it.
I do the same with my car. Get off work at the coldest part of the day and see well below zero F nights. If my engines last hundreds of thousands of miles using 10w-30 of yesterday's conventional oils then it will be fine using 5w-30 oils of today with NO WORRIES.
Take care, Bill
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Okay, I've got it figured out. Running some "magic" oil (which any oil is NOT) is not going to do it.
I
Take care, Bill
Bill ,Amsoil is magic! I heard it on the internet,
Steve S
Okay, I've got it figured out. Running some "magic" oil (which any oil is NOT) is not going to do it.
I
Take care, Bill
Bill ,Amsoil is magic! I heard it on the internet,
Steve S
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Quote:
IMHO, if you shop around a bit and buy ahead (when what you want is on sale) of the planned change, the price difference between good dino and good synthetic isn't that much. $10/OCI. That's what - 2 or 3 Happy Meals?
Agreed. Keep in mind that you're in the midst of some of the most fierce bargain hunters in lubrication history here. They too may rationalize a few things here or there. Cheaper oil allows them to change it more often, which in many cases neutralizes the savings. The peace of mind quotient can be those few happy meals that you cite.
IMHO, if you shop around a bit and buy ahead (when what you want is on sale) of the planned change, the price difference between good dino and good synthetic isn't that much. $10/OCI. That's what - 2 or 3 Happy Meals?
Agreed. Keep in mind that you're in the midst of some of the most fierce bargain hunters in lubrication history here. They too may rationalize a few things here or there. Cheaper oil allows them to change it more often, which in many cases neutralizes the savings. The peace of mind quotient can be those few happy meals that you cite.
Originally Posted By: c3po
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
Its a possibility I'll have to look into
Anytime you have junk in your engine or Valvetrain you need to look at the whole PCV System.
Quote:
For that single benefit, its worth it to me. $150 over 5 years is peanuts. If it can clean up the sludge, its a bonus. And in either case, it'll reduce future sludging.
It seems like you are relying on the oil to take care of your problem.
Quote:
In a warmer climate the above is not an issue
It is if the engine sees short trip driving where the condensation does not get burned off, or if you have a thermostat that is stuck open. Sometimes extending your OCI can lead to SLUDGE.
I only recently noticed the sludge. I'm not going to rely on it to take care of the problem. I have the repair manual for this car and I try and do what I can as time, weather and tools permit. I've had the car less than 3 months. In that time I've sunk about $500 in work that had to be done for it to pass inspection and be licensed. I've spent another $100 on a pair of ramps (to do my own oil, filter, and fluid changes), more wrenches, and some cleaners/solvents. It still needs at least one new pair of all season tires before the fall comes, to replace a badly worn set on the rear wheels.
The oil needs to be changed when it needs to be; its cheap and I prefer more frequent than necessary to neglecting to change it. I've given my reasons for switching to PP (price being a big factor).
If the oil can help clean it out, great. If not, than as time and resources permit (and as other kinks are worked out, based on priority, and what I have to work with in terms of time and resources again), then I'll tackle the PCV or whatever system is causing this build up.
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
Its a possibility I'll have to look into
Anytime you have junk in your engine or Valvetrain you need to look at the whole PCV System.
Quote:
For that single benefit, its worth it to me. $150 over 5 years is peanuts. If it can clean up the sludge, its a bonus. And in either case, it'll reduce future sludging.
It seems like you are relying on the oil to take care of your problem.
Quote:
In a warmer climate the above is not an issue
It is if the engine sees short trip driving where the condensation does not get burned off, or if you have a thermostat that is stuck open. Sometimes extending your OCI can lead to SLUDGE.
I only recently noticed the sludge. I'm not going to rely on it to take care of the problem. I have the repair manual for this car and I try and do what I can as time, weather and tools permit. I've had the car less than 3 months. In that time I've sunk about $500 in work that had to be done for it to pass inspection and be licensed. I've spent another $100 on a pair of ramps (to do my own oil, filter, and fluid changes), more wrenches, and some cleaners/solvents. It still needs at least one new pair of all season tires before the fall comes, to replace a badly worn set on the rear wheels.
The oil needs to be changed when it needs to be; its cheap and I prefer more frequent than necessary to neglecting to change it. I've given my reasons for switching to PP (price being a big factor).
If the oil can help clean it out, great. If not, than as time and resources permit (and as other kinks are worked out, based on priority, and what I have to work with in terms of time and resources again), then I'll tackle the PCV or whatever system is causing this build up.
From what I've seen the PP will clean a little better than a typical dino plus leave less deposits. It's kind of like an HD oil, which also cleans a little more than typical dinos. I would definitely replace the PCV valve and check out the system's hoses and connections. I think the PP and MMO would be your best bet, but I see MMO isn't available. It's possible your engine has mostly varnish and not all that much sludge and PP alone will clean it out over time.
I do want to address the possible reasons, and your post on the PCV system along with the other suggestions haven't been ignored. The PP is bought (and at $8 more than the rolled back Castrol GTX, I consider it a bargain - and I've used GTX many times on different cars I've owned), and therefore I'll use it when the time comes and make my own evaluation on its actual merits then (keep in mind: this will be my first time trying synth).
If I come off as sounding close-minded then that's really unfortunate, because this forum and its posters have taught me a lot about oil and additives in the months before I finally registered and made my first post.
So the point is more along the lines that I do want to address the problem. I had one theory, others have offered different perspectives and I haven't closed my mind to them. But using the PP I've already bought and remaining open minded to the feedback are not mutually exclusive; and if the tone of my posts has come across that way, then I have to admit some of the replies have made me feel a bit defensive. But that's all.
-Spyder
If I come off as sounding close-minded then that's really unfortunate, because this forum and its posters have taught me a lot about oil and additives in the months before I finally registered and made my first post.
So the point is more along the lines that I do want to address the problem. I had one theory, others have offered different perspectives and I haven't closed my mind to them. But using the PP I've already bought and remaining open minded to the feedback are not mutually exclusive; and if the tone of my posts has come across that way, then I have to admit some of the replies have made me feel a bit defensive. But that's all.
-Spyder
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