Dampers quickly melting on dirt road

[Pablo]

I need to ask him which aftermarket Blisteins he bought the second go around. Not from Toyota I know that much.

 

[AlphaOmega]

Laugh if you want, I know there are better shocks.

Pablo, could you please expand, or point to a reading resource on the topic? Thanks

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

One thing I really cannot stand is manufacturers marketing vehicles as track ready or off-road ready and then when they meet those conditions in the real world, the vehicle falls apart.

Our Jeep JKU was not exactly reliable, but one thing it did do was tackle real, genuine off-road conditions and trails, and not break a sweat.

 

[AlphaOmega]

The Toyota had Bilsteins on it:

View attachment 152647View attachment 152650

This is supposed to be a double certificate of quality: Toyota TRD Pro + Bilstein

 

[AlphaOmega]

I agree with the bigger tires, better bushings and shock mounts.

What bushings are you referring to, suspension (control arms, levers)? How would they and a different shock mount change things? Should they be softer, thicker kind?

 

[Pablo]

Pablo, could you please expand, or point to a reading resource on the topic? Thanks

I just reflected my brother's anecdotal experience, nothing to expand on. One road, for15 miles and kablewy. Replaced with aftermarket Bilsteins. 6 months, multiple rough roads. Kableeewwy.

He ended up with King's, which he has had for at least 5 years now, rougher and longer roads and bigger loads. No problems.

I may replace my Tacoma shocks next year. Unknown what I may use. Recommendations?

 

[97K15004WD]

What bushings are you referring to, suspension (control arms, levers)? How would they and a different shock mount change things? Should they be softer, thicker kind?

So, way back in the day, I gained familiarity with 2.5T (Deuce and a Half) and 5T (Five Ton) US Army trucks. When the new trucks came out with the air systems we loved them because they rode so much nicer. The only problem initially was the maintenance required on the air systems.

Back to the 2.5T and the 5T, the walking beams used different bushings than the springs for a reason - different types of loading and amounts of travel.

To answer your question, it depends on the vehicle. If you can run huge tires with flexible sidewalls, then stiffer bushings work fine (compare sway bars with OEM rubber versus aftermarket polyurethane/urethane, or other "harder" material). Heck, I've seen off-road trucks run Heim joints on the custom A-arms.

Regardless, it does depend on the total system. So, IMO, If you have very flexible tires and good dampeners, you probably needed "harder" bushings to help maintain better control and prevent "mushiness" or excessive wandering when steering.

Just depends on the total system setup and what the application is.

 

[AlphaOmega]

Recommendations?

I only used factory parts when replacing suspension components.

 

[Pablo]

I only used factory parts when replacing suspension components.

Fascinating. Thanks.

 

[edyvw]

I just reflected my brother's anecdotal experience, nothing to expand on. One road, for15 miles and kablewy. Replaced with aftermarket Bilsteins. 6 months, multiple rough roads. Kableeewwy.

He ended up with King's, which he has had for at least 5 years now, rougher and longer roads and bigger loads. No problems.

I may replace my Tacoma shocks next year. Unknown what I may use. Recommendations?

I really do not know how he uses his vehicle, but my BMW runs on the track, take kids to school, and daycare, takes me to ski, and yet Bilstein works like new.

 

[AlphaOmega]

Fascinating. Thanks.

Sorry, I know it’s not the most creative approach

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

Could have just been a problem with that part number, who knows.

King and Ohlins are better. But that is like saying Ferrari is better than BMW.

 

[IndyIan]

Sounds more like Toyota spec'd the wrong shock.

Which doesn't surprise me. I'm sure the price Toyota was quoted for a truly suitable damper was scoffed at, when all they really wanted was yellow paint and a sticker to show off in photos.

Factory Bilstein in my Touareg are good going on 12 years now.

I'm sure you could go kill them in 1/2 hour or less going fast on some washboard with road pressures in your tires....
Probably what also help save the Ridgeline shocks was softer damping rates so it wasn't absorbing as much energy and so they didn't heat up as much.

 

[Pew]

Bilsteins are great, at least for road going cars. For the Evo, revalved OEM bilsteins are the best thing until $2,500+ Ohlins or KW but I have no idea about anything off-road except coilovers meant for pavement will quickly overheat and fail in off-road situations.

Undersized and over-worked. If it's OEM and a constant issue on those vehicles then toyota made a design flaw or the real world use does not reflect the design of the vehicle/shocks, which would be disappointing considering the vehicle it's on.

 

[Srt20]

I just reflected my brother's anecdotal experience, nothing to expand on. One road, for15 miles and kablewy. Replaced with aftermarket Bilsteins. 6 months, multiple rough roads. Kableeewwy.

He ended up with King's, which he has had for at least 5 years now, rougher and longer roads and bigger loads. No problems.

I may replace my Tacoma shocks next year. Unknown what I may use. Recommendations?

Here you go. Last vid was published today.

 

[dumkid]

haven't watched the video yet, but yesterday I did 30+ miles of washboard at 30 mph, and my shocks are fine. kyb gas a just on ifs/irs Mitsubishi Montero.

 

[swampdodo]

Here is some more info from that test...apparently, Honda learned from the previous generation...which didn't do so well in a similar test (I thought this sounded familiar).

https://pickuptrucktalk.com/2017/08/edmunds-torture-tests-tacoma-trd-off-road-blows-shocks/

 

[AlphaOmega]

Here is some more info from that test...apparently, Honda learned from the previous generation...which didn't do so well in a similar test (I thought this sounded familiar).

https://pickuptrucktalk.com/2017/08/edmunds-torture-tests-tacoma-trd-off-road-blows-shocks/

Yes, that the article on video in original post. Interestingly, the tester used to work for Toyota:

“Edmunds, who initially worked on the TRD line up of trucks as the suspension engineer for Toyota at the Arizona Proving Grounds, said he approached this test like he would do when working for the automaker. They would assume the customer didn’t air down their tires and they would go out and test the vehicles.”

No airing down for the washboard because that’s not how manufacturer tested dampers.

And whoever calle it out that it was the skinniest Bilstein used on Tacoma and that’s why it failed made a good call:

Based on his background, he says the real fault is in the selection of the “skinny 36 mm shocks”– the smallest ones in Bilstein’s catalog. Those shocks handled the load of the first-generation truck, which was 850 pounds heavier than this new generation vehicles, Edmunds says.

“I was totally surprised Toyota was still using them,” adds Edmunds. “That didn’t really sink in until a day or two had passed. At the time, I was blown away this could happen on a washboard road.”

Thinking on it, Edmunds says he was thoroughly confused at first.

“Bilsteins, being monotube shocks, have single walls and they should be really good at rejecting heat,” he says. “Looking at the math, these washboard inputs are only about an inch tall, they are generally 16 to 18 inches apart. If you do the math, that’s 3,000 to 4,000 impacts before mile. That is a lot when you start turning that into more miles. Our entire trip was about a quarter million impacts.”

Lastly, anyways you slice it, but Tacoma is a budget, and therefore compromised, rather an an over engineered product:

“However, our source pointed out that changing to the larger shock wasn’t a simple matter of swapping them. In order to meet ride and handling and safety requirements, putting the larger shocks on the truck would cause engineers to reinforce other sections of the truck to handle load differences. This adds cost, as does the additional expense of the larger shocks.
“We could put shocks on every Tacoma that could withstand that environment,” our source says. “But the added weight and cost for a handful of times they would be needed wouldn’t make sense for our customers, who would [have to] pay more.”

 

[AlphaOmega]

Here you go. Last vid was published today.

Interesting concept of blindly testing dampers, but these two are like Beavis and Butthead: constantly giggling without any reason and mumbling aloud some afterthoughts; the wearing of a bum hat in a dessert is funny too

Wonder how such a big name as Fox could have “poorly tuned” their product for one of the most popular applications? Unless these 2 don’t understand the sophisticated philosophy behind the tuning and it actually makes sense? Does any one have a better idea why Fox is tuned for Tacoma the way it is?

 

[Pablo]

Yes, that the article on video in original post. Interestingly, the tester used to work for Toyota:

“Edmunds, who initially worked on the TRD line up of trucks as the suspension engineer for Toyota at the Arizona Proving Grounds, said he approached this test like he would do when working for the automaker. They would assume the customer didn’t air down their tires and they would go out and test the vehicles.”

No airing down for the washboard because that’s not how manufacturer tested dampers.

And whoever calle it out that it was the skinniest Bilstein used on Tacoma and that’s why it failed made a good call:

Based on his background, he says the real fault is in the selection of the “skinny 36 mm shocks”– the smallest ones in Bilstein’s catalog. Those shocks handled the load of the first-generation truck, which was 850 pounds heavier than this new generation vehicles, Edmunds says.

“I was totally surprised Toyota was still using them,” adds Edmunds. “That didn’t really sink in until a day or two had passed. At the time, I was blown away this could happen on a washboard road.”

Thinking on it, Edmunds says he was thoroughly confused at first.

“Bilsteins, being monotube shocks, have single walls and they should be really good at rejecting heat,” he says. “Looking at the math, these washboard inputs are only about an inch tall, they are generally 16 to 18 inches apart. If you do the math, that’s 3,000 to 4,000 impacts before mile. That is a lot when you start turning that into more miles. Our entire trip was about a quarter million impacts.”

Lastly, anyways you slice it, but Tacoma is a budget, and therefore compromised, rather an an over engineered product:

“However, our source pointed out that changing to the larger shock wasn’t a simple matter of swapping them. In order to meet ride and handling and safety requirements, putting the larger shocks on the truck would cause engineers to reinforce other sections of the truck to handle load differences. This adds cost, as does the additional expense of the larger shocks.
“We could put shocks on every Tacoma that could withstand that environment,” our source says. “But the added weight and cost for a handful of times they would be needed wouldn’t make sense for our customers, who would [have to] pay more.”

But all cars and trucks are a "budget" in the sub $100K range or so. I mean I agree to some extent, any truck will eventually have parts fail if you hammer it enough. But that doesn't mean you can't improve on stock parts AND by doing so cause near instant death.