cut open my Fram filters NO pictures

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Messages
23,730
Location
Upper Midwest
Spare me. Saying that transmission fluid is good for a "lifetime", is both ridiculous and stupid. Yet several manufacturers say exactly that. It has nothing to do with, "random Internet recommendations". It's common sense. Transmission fluid is NOT designed to last a "lifetime".

A person applying that same common sense has good reason to be skeptical of anyone who tells them that. Especially a manufacturer. Once you have been made skeptical of one recommendation, why would you trust others they make as holy writ? I wouldn't and don't.

Pushing oil filters beyond one use, only because the "manufacturer recommends it" becomes meaningless. I recommend otherwise. You do what you feel comfortable with.
Focus. We are talking about Honda's recommendation to utilize an oil filter for two OCIs. Rail about that other stuff in a different thread.
 
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
10,000
Location
Lake Havasu City, Arizona
If I thought that all manufacturer recommendations were based on providing the best long term serviceability for me as the consumer, then I would follow them to the T. Unfortunately, manufacturers have competing interests that do not always align with mine. Sales, marketing, warranties, dealers, EPA, federal regulators, etc all have their stake in what the manufacturer communicates to customers. So I read things with a little grain of salt.
Exactly. Just look at the way they word the use of 0W-16 oil. They dance with words like Fred Astaire did with Rita Hayworth on the dance floor. Nowhere do they say it's best for the engine. They dance around using lingo like, "best fuel economy", "improved cold weather starting ability".

Then they finally cave by admitting that, "An oil with a higher viscosity may be better suited for higher speeds and temperatures"..... So which is it? Yeah, they're talking out of both sides of their mouths based on CAFE. But the fact is they will manipulate what they say for their benefit. NOT the longevity of your vehicle.

And no one is going to convince me that stretching oil filter usage by using them twice, is going to make my vehicle last any longer. Any more than leaving transmission oil in it until it rots. Or using 0W-16 oil in the middle of the Mojave Desert in July. I'm not looking at using something because I can get away with it. Or because it's, "manufacturer recommended". I want what's best for my vehicle, period.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
10,000
Location
Lake Havasu City, Arizona
Focus. We are talking about Honda's recommendation to utilize an oil filter for two OCIs. Rail about that other stuff in a different thread.
I can't focus any clearer. Nonsense is nonsense. If someone is feeding you B.S. are you going to trust them the second time they feed you similar crap? How is using an oil filter twice going to improve the life of my vehicle? It's not, period.

And if anyone actually believes it will, they're idiots. Can you get away with it? Sure you can. They are plenty of neglected vehicles out there they can point to for "proof". But it is NOT what's best for your engine. I don't care who say's it, or worse, "recommends it". Be it Honda or anyone else.

And don't cherry pick. Manufacturer recommendations includes a lot of things. Fluids are among the most important. Trying to tell me I can leave transmission fluid in my vehicle for it's lifetime is completely idiotic. I don't pay attention to idiotic recommendations. Regardless of who makes them.
 
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Messages
23,730
Location
Upper Midwest
I can't focus any clearer. Nonsense is nonsense. If someone is feeding you B.S. are you going to trust them the second time they feed you similar crap? How is using an oil filter twice going to improve the life of my vehicle? It's not, period.

And if anyone actually believes it will, they're idiots. Can you get away with it? Sure you can. They are plenty of neglected vehicles out there they can point to for "proof". But it is NOT what's best for your engine. I don't care who say's it, or worse, "recommends it". Be it Honda or anyone else.

And don't cherry pick. Manufacturer recommendations includes a lot of things. Fluids are among the most important. Trying to tell me I can leave transmission fluid in my vehicle for it's lifetime is completely idiotic. I don't pay attention to idiotic recommendations. Regardless of who makes them.
Again focus please. Calling people idiots isn't helping your cause much. Using an oil filter twice isn't going to help but it isn't going to harm either as I noted above. Please show me where it will. That's the question and the point of all this, I'm not cherry picking but sticking to the topic.

No matter how you slice it, recommending a 2X oil filter OCI is not an idiotic recommendation. Nor is it nonsense.
 
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
10,000
Location
Lake Havasu City, Arizona
No matter how you slice it, recommending a 2X oil filter OCI is not an idiotic recommendation. Nor is it nonsense.
Nor is it going to improve the life of your vehicle. And that is all I'm interested in doing.

If you're interested in saving $5 bucks every six months on oil filters, I would assume you would find that a good recommendation. I don't. I'll save money elsewhere.
 

ZeeOSix

$100 site donor 2022
Joined
Jul 22, 2010
Messages
35,156
Location
PNW
My point is, it is pretty much meaningless what a, "manufacturer recommends". Don't forget about all of their "lifetime fluids". That has nothing to do with CAFE either. But it's still idiotic.
Maybe manufacturers recommending an oil filter change at 3,000-5,000 miles is meaningless when someone is using a filter that is rated for 15,000-20,000 miles. Maybe most manufacturers recommend a filter change every short OCI because the OEM filter isn't that great of an oil filter and can't handle a longer OCI then recommended. Look at the other side of the coin. And yeah, focus on the discussion of oil filters ... don't go off in the weeds, lol. I wouldn't run oil in the transmission or differential(s) and never change it either.
 

ZeeOSix

$100 site donor 2022
Joined
Jul 22, 2010
Messages
35,156
Location
PNW
Pushing oil filters beyond one use, only because the "manufacturer recommends it" becomes meaningless. I recommend otherwise. You do what you feel comfortable with.
So you think those Honda engineers don't know what they are doing? 😄 They have been using that maintenance recommendation for a very long time, and still do today. Of course everyone can do whatever they want to their stuff, and obviously some can see the logic of using an oil filter more than once based on the circumstances involved.
 

ZeeOSix

$100 site donor 2022
Joined
Jul 22, 2010
Messages
35,156
Location
PNW
Exactly. Just look at the way they word the use of 0W-16 oil. They dance with words like Fred Astaire did with Rita Hayworth on the dance floor. Nowhere do they say it's best for the engine. They dance around using lingo like, "best fuel economy", "improved cold weather starting ability".

Then they finally cave by admitting that, "An oil with a higher viscosity may be better suited for higher speeds and temperatures"..... So which is it? Yeah, they're talking out of both sides of their mouths based on CAFE. But the fact is they will manipulate what they say for their benefit. NOT the longevity of your vehicle.
We all know that they say it all that way ... because of CAFE. The manufacturers save a lot of money when they follow CAFE rules, we all know that. If there was no CAFE, there most likely wouldn't be 0W-16 or 0W-8 oils. Some manufactures have went back to a thicker oil recommendation (like Ford on some engines) because maybe they save more money in warranty claims than they do following CAFE.

There have been countless links to articles and studies posted on BITOG over the years that show the relationship between oil viscosity, MOFT and wear. The AF/AW additive package of the oil also factors in to wear (aka: the oil "film strength"). The manufacturer's engine engineers know all about tribology, but CAFE has a gag ball in their mouths - no new revelations there.

But fortunately, you are on BITOG where all the smoke and mirrors can be seen. 😄

And no one is going to convince me that stretching oil filter usage by using them twice, is going to make my vehicle last any longer. Any more than leaving transmission oil in it until it rots. Or using 0W-16 oil in the middle of the Mojave Desert in July. I'm not looking at using something because I can get away with it. Or because it's, "manufacturer recommended". I want what's best for my vehicle, period.
There is no proof that using an oil filter twice, and within it's rated mileage hurts anything. Do you change out your fuel filter way before it's rated life or OM change recommendation, assuming you don't get a crap tank of gas somewhere? Oil filters (as all filters) when used in normal conditions are good for their rated life - an oil filter doesn't know how many OCIs are on it. If a filter is rated for 20K miles and used for 3X 5000 OCIs, then it's still been used less than if it was ran one OCI for 20K miles.
 
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
10,000
Location
Lake Havasu City, Arizona
"Not hurting anything" isn't what I'm looking to accomplish. Nor is saving money. I want what is best for my engine. Reusing oil filters isn't going to help in my quest for the longest engine life possible.
 

ZeeOSix

$100 site donor 2022
Joined
Jul 22, 2010
Messages
35,156
Location
PNW
"Not hurting anything" isn't what I'm looking to accomplish. Nor is saving money. I want what is best for my engine. Reusing oil filters isn't going to help in my quest for the longest engine life possible.
Are you using a high efficiency oil filter - OEM or aftermarket filter? Do you know the ISO 4548-12 efficiency rating of your oil filter?
 
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
10,000
Location
Lake Havasu City, Arizona
Are you using a high efficiency oil filter - OEM or aftermarket filter? Do you know the ISO 4548-12 efficiency rating of your oil filter?
You're way overthinking this for argument purposes. (Welcome to BITOG). I use Fram mostly. What I don't like with reusing filters, is putting old dirty oil back into the system. (We're back to putting on dirty underwear again after that nice, clean shower).

I like using a fresh filter with each and every oil change. That assures I'm doing everything possible to have as clean of oil in my engine as I can. The cost isn't even worth mentioning. So I'm not saving anything worthy of note by reusing old, dirty crap.

Reusing filters and old oil isn't going to help me achieve the best care. And it's not as if it's going to save me any work. An oil change is a messy PITA no matter how you do it.

What am I gaining by not doing it is the better question? I can't think of a single thing.
 

Zee09

$200 Site Donor 2022
Joined
May 5, 2018
Messages
10,253
Location
Fairhill Maryland
You're way overthinking this for argument purposes. (Welcome to BITOG). I use Fram mostly. What I don't like with reusing filters, is putting old dirty oil back into the system. (We're back to putting on dirty underwear again after that nice, clean shower).

I like using a fresh filter with each and every oil change. That assures I'm doing everything possible to have as clean of oil in my engine as I can. The cost isn't even worth mentioning. So I'm not saving anything worthy of note by reusing old, dirty crap.

Reusing filters and old oil isn't going to help me achieve the best care. And it's not as if it's going to save me any work. An oil change is a messy PITA no matter how you do it.

What am I gaining by not doing it is the better question? I can't think of a single thing.
Milton Berle always preferred a fresh bowl too.
 

ZeeOSix

$100 site donor 2022
Joined
Jul 22, 2010
Messages
35,156
Location
PNW
You're way overthinking this for argument purposes. (Welcome to BITOG). I use Fram mostly. What I don't like with reusing filters, is putting old dirty oil back into the system. (We're back to putting on dirty underwear again after that nice, clean shower).

I like using a fresh filter with each and every oil change. That assures I'm doing everything possible to have as clean of oil in my engine as I can. The cost isn't even worth mentioning. So I'm not saving anything worthy of note by reusing old, dirty crap.

Reusing filters and old oil isn't going to help me achieve the best care. And it's not as if it's going to save me any work. An oil change is a messy PITA no matter how you do it.
Not over thinking it ... it's a technical discussion, not a discussion of "feelings" about the subject. I get the "dirty underwear" analogy, but in the end there is absolutely zero proof that leaving 8 oz of "dirty" oil (and most likely not even close to worn out oil) in the engine is going to do any harm whatsoever. What about these quick lube places that do an OCI with luke warm oil and reinstalls the drain plug when the oil just starts to drip. I'd bet there is close to another 8 oz that would drain out if it drained for 1-2 hrs instead. Can anyone show a study that shows that leaving an extra 8 oz of old oil in an engine does damage? Did the Honda engineers not get that memo, lol?

What am I gaining by not doing it is the better question? I can't think of a single thing.
1) Less time and mess to do an OCI. Changing the oil filter is a lot more messy in most cases than just changing the oil.
2) Some oil filter locations are a real bear to get to and change the filter - I've had a few vehicles like that.
3) Less cost for maintenance. And if someone used a 20K rated filter for 2x or 3x OCIs, then they are saving filter cost.
4) Less hazmat waste in the landfills.

None of those may matter to you, but one or more might to a lot of people.
 
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
10,000
Location
Lake Havasu City, Arizona
........ but in the end there is absolutely zero proof that leaving 8 oz of "dirty" oil (and most likely not even close to worn out oil) in the engine is going to do any harm whatsoever.
I'm just not that enthusiastic about following a "dealer recommendation" that is based on, "not doing any harm to my car".

I am far more interested in doing all the good for it I possibly can.
 

ZeeOSix

$100 site donor 2022
Joined
Jul 22, 2010
Messages
35,156
Location
PNW
Of course ... everyone does what they think is "best". I get flack because I like to use high efficiency oil filters, yet nobody can produce any study that shows that cleaner oil doesn't cause less wear. News: cleaner oil will always result in less wear, per every study ever done ... go figure. 😂
 
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
10,000
Location
Lake Havasu City, Arizona
Of course ... everyone does what they think is "best". I get flack because I like to use high efficiency oil filters, yet nobody can produce any study that shows that cleaner oil doesn't cause less wear. News: cleaner oil will always result in less wear, per every study ever done ... go figure. 😂
I can't argue with that. But from what I've heard, (right here on BITOG), is that the difference in actual micron filtration from average, to high end filters isn't that much at all as far as particle size.
 

ZeeOSix

$100 site donor 2022
Joined
Jul 22, 2010
Messages
35,156
Location
PNW
I can't argue with that. But from what I've heard, (right here on BITOG), is that the difference in actual micron filtration from average, to high end filters isn't that much at all as far as particle size.
Don't know what you "heard", but you might want to read this thread from this point on (link below), or the whole thread from the beginning for that matter.

Might also do some research on engine wear vs oil debris particle size. It's actually the particles below 20μ that do the most wear. A filter rated at 99% @ 20μ is going to remove more particles below 20μ than a filter rated at 99% @ 25 or 30μ. How the efficiency vs particle size curve drops off below 20μ can make a difference on how clean the oil stays.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...ow-bubble-point-and-burst.334882/post-5789087
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
10,000
Location
Lake Havasu City, Arizona
The problem with all of that technical jargon, is how does it translate into actual mileage your engine will last? It doesn't because it can't. If I use an orange can $3 Fram, instead of an Ultra Guard, or whatever guard, is my engine going to fail any sooner?

If so how much sooner? 10,000.... 50,000.... 100,000. No one could possibly know. It might even last longer. There is no way to know, and even fewer ways to prove it. There are too many variables to even think about it.

I've been driving for over 50 years, and I've never given it a thought. And I don't know a single soul who has. And I've used all of the major brands of filters, and a few off brands at one time or another.

You could ask a ten thousand drivers what particle size their filter traps, and you would be lucky if there were 2 who knew. And ANY who cared.

Change your oil and filter often, use good oil, and hope for the best. Everything else is pretty much typing exercise on BITOG.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top