Custom Motor Build -- Conventional over Synthetic?

[Shannow]

Come on, back in '55, the SBC were run on natural gas, with an open botom end for balancing after being fitted with select fit bearings, pistons, rings, etc. etc.

Select fit, from hundreds of thousands of parts allows Rolls Royce clearances to be maintained at '55chev costs.

Telling a guy to pick #3 piston out of basket #5 doesn't need an individual data sheet for the engine number, nor to have the assembly guy understand the climate controlled measuring rooms that allocated the pistons to basket #5

 

[Rock_Hudstone]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I can assure you that this is simply not true.

Only in very particular and expensive cars are the engines actually run at the factory. For almost ANY mass produced car the first run occurs at start up at the end of the assembly line. Few cars are driven anywhere but to the storage lot!

It doesn't happen the factory, it's done at the engine building plant which is often a different location, state or country.
Its hard to imagine that Chrysler for example is going build a Hemi engine in Mexico, ship it to Canada or wherever the final assembly point is and fire it up for the very first time at the end of the line.

If there is problem then what, throw it the dumpster, ship it back to Mexico?

Even in mass production everything gets run and tested in some way before it goes out the door, and out the door in this case is the engine building plant, not the end of the assembly line.

 

[mechtech2]

The factories all run the engines after they are built.

 

[Propflux01]

I just watched a video on Engine building plant for the L-850 Engine Build at GM Powertrain Tonawanda Plant. It starts from block to finished product. The only "run" the engine has is a Spin-type run (as I described earlier, and no, not lug nuts..) to ensure phase and oil pressure. It does not use any type of fuel and the engine is never 'lit off' to run on any kind of dyno. It is simply crated and shipped to the assembly line.

 

[72te27]

Many, if not most of the engine building plants now hook an engine up to a "dyno" either at the end of the building process or at points during the process, and measure the torque required to spin the engine or assembly up to that point. The engine is not spinning the dyno, the dyno is spinning the engine. For instance, I recently talked with an engineer that, up until recently, worked for Toyota. He said that after the crank is installed in the block on a Toyota motor, that assembly is spun by a computer controlled device that measures torque required. He said that a single hair trapped between a crank journal and its bearing will cause a torque reading outside the acceptable range, resulting in that engine assembly being removed from the assembly stream and broken down to determine the cause. He said the fully assembled engines are also spun this way, not fired.

IOW, because various measurements and function tests are performed on the engine during assembly, production history and quality assurance procedures virtually assure that all engines coming out of the clean room production facilities will run as designed. Of course, they still grab random engines out of the assembly stream to run full dyno and diagnostic "tests" on, for QA purposes and confirmation that engineering specs are being reached.

The engineering, machining accuracy and tolerances, assembly processes and QA procedures that are utilized in producing engines today result in a sort of "built-in" blue -printing process that takes place from the front of the process. Unlike a traditionally blue-printed, hand built custom motor, these processes allow for high volume in addition to the high quality we see in todays production motors.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: 72te27
Many, if not most of the engine building plants now hook an engine up to a "dyno" either at the end of the building process or at points during the process, and measure the torque required to spin the engine or assembly up to that point. The engine is not spinning the dyno, the dyno is spinning the engine. For instance, I recently talked with an engineer that, up until recently, worked for Toyota. He said that after the crank is installed in the block on a Toyota motor, that assembly is spun by a computer controlled device that measures torque required. He said that a single hair trapped between a crank journal and its bearing will cause a torque reading outside the acceptable range, resulting in that engine assembly being removed from the assembly stream and broken down to determine the cause. He said the fully assembled engines are also spun this way, not fired.

IOW, because various measurements and function tests are performed on the engine during assembly, production history and quality assurance procedures virtually assure that all engines coming out of the clean room production facilities will run as designed. Of course, they still grab random engines out of the assembly stream to run full dyno and diagnostic "tests" on, for QA purposes and confirmation that engineering specs are being reached.

The engineering, machining accuracy and tolerances, assembly processes and QA procedures that are utilized in producing engines today result in a sort of "built-in" blue -printing process that takes place from the front of the process. Unlike a traditionally blue-printed, hand built custom motor, these processes allow for high volume in addition to the high quality we see in todays production motors.


I know Toyota specs 5W30 for their truck engines.Why not 5W20?

 

[Rock_Hudstone]

Originally Posted By: Tim H.
The only "run" the engine has is a Spin-type run (as I described earlier, and no, not lug nuts..) to ensure phase and oil pressure. It does not use any type of fuel and the engine is never 'lit off' to run on any kind of dyno. It is simply crated and shipped to the assembly line.

Right, its call a cold start but the engine still is mostly complete and for all intents is running, though not fueled.

 

[Propflux01]

Originally Posted By: Rock_Hudstone
Right, its call a cold start but the engine still is mostly complete and for all intents is running, though not fueled.


Really... Thats not what you said earlier:

Originally Posted By: Rock_Hudstone

Before installation manufacturers run new engines on a test stand and monitor it for 10-15 minutes, that is the critical "break-in" period right there.

Big difference between a spun engine, much like both mine and '72's description, than what your trying to sell here...

 

[DuckRyder]

Ahem....

OP, what type (material) of ring was used on the build?

 

[72te27]

BlueOvalFitter,
If your question was meant for me specifically, I don't know why Toyota specifies 5w-30 for the truck engines. I will try to remember to ask my friend the Toyota engineer the next time I talk to him to see if he has any insight.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: 72te27
BlueOvalFitter,
If your question was meant for me specifically, I don't know why Toyota specifies 5w-30 for the truck engines. I will try to remember to ask my friend the Toyota engineer the next time I talk to him to see if he has any insight.

My cousin has a 2010 Tacoma and it specs 5W30.He said all Toyota trucks spec 5W30.Yes,please ask him.

 

[72te27]

Will do.

 

[Mitch Alsup]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
When someone brings you a 20 grand crate motor and orders 20 grand of machining you are allowed to raise your expectations a bit. There is NO WAY any mass produced engine can match the balancing and blueprinting you'll get in a competent professional's shop!


I agree that 1% of the shops in the country are capable of doing better machining than the factories--even to aerospace quality levels. But the vast majoity of machine shops are still living with machine tools of 1950s vintage.

 

[BillyTheKid]

I personally would break it in on conventional and change fast, no more than 500 miles or less. Then you can choose synthetic or conventional, whatever floats your boat. Me, I used to be a big synthetic guy, but then I noticed I change oil too darn fast to still live and die by synthetics. I'm not too sure on the direction I would go after the break in.

 

[Finn]

My two Gen 1 SBC engines, a 383 and 427, both were run-in and dynoed by the builder with mineral oil. After first few hundred kilometers the oil was to be changed for again mineral and after the second few hundred kilometers changed for what I wanted to use.

I do not know scientific reason for this or if everything would have worked just the same with synthetic from the start but these were his builds so that's what we did.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: Finn
My two Gen 1 SBC engines, a 383 and 427, both were run-in and dynoed by the builder with mineral oil. After first few hundred kilometers the oil was to be changed for again mineral and after the second few hundred kilometers changed for what I wanted to use.

I do not know scientific reason for this or if everything would have worked just the same with synthetic from the start but these were his builds so that's what we did.

Hmmmm,sounds sort of like how I did my engines after I built them. Interesting.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Tim H.
Originally Posted By: Rock_Hudstone
Right, its call a cold start but the engine still is mostly complete and for all intents is running, though not fueled.


Really... Thats not what you said earlier:

Originally Posted By: Rock_Hudstone

Before installation manufacturers run new engines on a test stand and monitor it for 10-15 minutes, that is the critical "break-in" period right there.

Big difference between a spun engine, much like both mine and '72's description, than what your trying to sell here...



Markedly different stories, flexible aren't we. I sure hope no one really believes this nonsense about every engine being run first!

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Mitch Alsup
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
When someone brings you a 20 grand crate motor and orders 20 grand of machining you are allowed to raise your expectations a bit. There is NO WAY any mass produced engine can match the balancing and blueprinting you'll get in a competent professional's shop!


I agree that 1% of the shops in the country are capable of doing better machining than the factories--even to aerospace quality levels. But the vast majoity of machine shops are still living with machine tools of 1950s vintage.


And we actually buy old tools and parts all the time and remanufacture them to like new again. Kind of a hobby, but occasionally very interesting.

My BIL just made 2 titanium calipers for a dune buggy project. I wish you guys could see his work!

 

[Jim Allen]

I think the old "dino-only for break-in" is a hangover from the old days. Back before the new honing techniques they use now, ring seating was a big issue and a really slippery oil could slow or stop that process. Might still be true for some of the behind-the-times machine shops out there so it could be an "it depends" answer. For myself, if I plan on running a short break-in OCI, I prefer not to dump high dollar syn, so I might use a dino for that reason. Since many new engines start with syn in the crankcase, I think that puts paid to the notion that dino is "needed" for break-in in all cases.

As to the other discussion here about whether newly built engines are run before installation into a new vehicle or not, it's highly variable. And it might change from one period of time to another. The terms "hot test" (where the engine is run) vs "cold test" (where the engine is spun over via a motor) need to be mentioned here.

I've been through a large number of factories and engine lines. Almost all hot test a certain portion of their engines for QC. I think the percentages might change according to how many problems they may be having with those engines at the time. A few hot test ALL engines.

When I went thru the Duramax line at Moraine a few years back, I learned that that they hot test every Duramax and, IIRC, have since they started production in '01. It's a 15 minute process. Completed engines roll into one in a long line of dyno cells. They are on robotic carts that pick then up on completion of the assembly and they play little tunes as they trundle about. The engine goes into the cell and hookup to the dyno is partly automated and partly by a human. The engine is spun over, presumably for prelubing, then started. It goes through a warmup while the computer tests various parameters. The engine then does some increasingly hard runs, working up to the final full power runs. The engine has to deliver it's maximum rated power. If it passes all the tests, the engine is carried to a crating area on it's singing robot, where is is put into a shipping container and very soon loaded onto a truck or train to go to the truck assembly line. Some of them are still warm as they go into the container. If they fail the tests in any way, they go into a repair area, but as I recall, that number is very low at the Duramax plant.

 

[virginoil]

Stick with recommendations of the one whom is underwriting the warranty.