I really don't listen to a thing CR says concerning autos. They're better off sticking to testing toasters and washing machines. They have announced 2-3 rollover risks in the past 15-20 years. I don't like Lexus but at the same time I think CR is out of bounds in their results. You cannot engineer laws of physics out of a vehicle.
CR puts out don't buy warning on Lexus SUV
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As much as I want to say to the kool aid drinkers, "see, you welcome CR when they bash the domestics as proof of your superior intellect with buying vehicles, but now you dispute their results", it wouldn't be fair. CR's opinions were garbage then, and they are now too. CR prays on those who's common sense is lacking and those who have lost their ability to think for themselves. If I wanted that Lexus, I sure wouldn't let CR stop me from buying it.
PS, ek, no response needed to my kool aid line...not sure why it pushes your buttons!
PS, ek, no response needed to my kool aid line...not sure why it pushes your buttons!
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
[ If they don't want to think about how to drive something with twice the weight and ground clearance of the tin can they took their driver's exam in, they shouldn't be driving at all. But I digress...
I agree with you 100% on that.
[ If they don't want to think about how to drive something with twice the weight and ground clearance of the tin can they took their driver's exam in, they shouldn't be driving at all. But I digress...
I agree with you 100% on that.
Another factor: CR is making a blanket recommendation based upon experience with one vehicle. I've seen the video, and no, the VSC does not appear to be working well. I have, ahem, experienced several VSC activations/saves, and while it certainly does not repeal the laws of physics, it's still very effective in keeping you headed in the correct direction. It may be as simple a matter as an overall recalibration of the system, or even more simply, perhaps that ONE SINGLE vehicle is out of whack. One should be careful about drawing global conclusions (as in "don't buy this vehicle") from a sample of ONE!
Originally Posted By: IntegraVT
Here's a link to the video of CR's road test - http://video.consumerreports.org/services/player/bcpid1886192495?bctid=77022871001
Sigh... any vehicle with a high center of gravity has the propensity to rollover cornered fast enough.
Ever see a semi laying on its side in or just past a corner? ...the driver took the corner too fast and the laws of physics came into play.
Everyone operating a vehicle needs to understand their vehicle and the limitations... and not the other way around... with the vehicle control systems preventing some fool driver from killing themselves.
Here's a link to the video of CR's road test - http://video.consumerreports.org/services/player/bcpid1886192495?bctid=77022871001
Sigh... any vehicle with a high center of gravity has the propensity to rollover cornered fast enough.
Ever see a semi laying on its side in or just past a corner? ...the driver took the corner too fast and the laws of physics came into play.
Everyone operating a vehicle needs to understand their vehicle and the limitations... and not the other way around... with the vehicle control systems preventing some fool driver from killing themselves.
If the vehicle's stability control is out of whack, the built-in diagnostics should warn the driver of that fact. If there's a fault that the diagnostics can't detect, well...draw your own conclusions about how well that system is engineered.
Watching the video, I'm thinking to myself, if the rear didn't slide out, the vehicle probably would have flipped. I'm thinking the back end sliding out is what kept that ride from going over as the energy bleeds off from the slide. If the outside tires hold the road, you start to lift the inside wheels. How much of that does it take before the vehicle flips?
If the inside wheels lift, how does ESC effectively apply the brakes to that side of the vehicle? Isn't that what ESC would do, apply brakes to the inside wheels to bring things under control?
I do agree, if you hit a curb, drop off the road, you may flip over. But that's not unique to a Lexus.
That just looked like any episode of Top Gear with Jeremy at the wheel. The only difference was it was an SUV, not some European sports car.
If the inside wheels lift, how does ESC effectively apply the brakes to that side of the vehicle? Isn't that what ESC would do, apply brakes to the inside wheels to bring things under control?
I do agree, if you hit a curb, drop off the road, you may flip over. But that's not unique to a Lexus.
That just looked like any episode of Top Gear with Jeremy at the wheel. The only difference was it was an SUV, not some European sports car.
Most ESC implementations have a yaw rate sensor. This sensor can tell the ESC control module that the vehicle is experiencing lateral g-forces that could cause it to lift the inside wheel long before it actually does.
Originally Posted By: brianl703
Most ESC implementations have a yaw rate sensor. This sensor can tell the ESC control module that the vehicle is experiencing lateral g-forces that could cause it to lift the inside wheel long before it actually does.
Oh, I understand but perhaps I was not clear. If there was no ESC and simply stick tires, a flip may occur.
How is this different from any other vehicle that enters a ramp at too high a speed and experiences lift throttle oversteer?
No brakes were applied, so thats just from letting off the throttle.
I admit, it certainly would shock most drivers, especially those expecting ESC to keep the back wheels following the fronts.
Most ESC implementations have a yaw rate sensor. This sensor can tell the ESC control module that the vehicle is experiencing lateral g-forces that could cause it to lift the inside wheel long before it actually does.
Oh, I understand but perhaps I was not clear. If there was no ESC and simply stick tires, a flip may occur.
How is this different from any other vehicle that enters a ramp at too high a speed and experiences lift throttle oversteer?
No brakes were applied, so thats just from letting off the throttle.
I admit, it certainly would shock most drivers, especially those expecting ESC to keep the back wheels following the fronts.
I think a good ESC implementation could prevent the vehicle from flipping, which is why I brought up the possibility that the yaw rate sensor could signal the ESC to intervene before it even comes close.
Originally Posted By: brianl703
Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
Drive with a little sense and that Lexus won't flip.
The average Lexus customer did not buy a Lexus because they want to think about how to drive it.
And average lexus customer push the vehicle to its limit in manuvering it to the point of flipping??! I doubt it.
It is hard to believe that such a high end car has such an obvious fatal flaw and Toyota missed it. Just common sense thing, you know.
It is customery that if a product fails mireably the tester notifys the maker to make sure all the ground is covered before publishing the result. I wonder if CR did that! If not shame on them. Could it be pushing the car beyond its design limit?
Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
Drive with a little sense and that Lexus won't flip.
The average Lexus customer did not buy a Lexus because they want to think about how to drive it.
And average lexus customer push the vehicle to its limit in manuvering it to the point of flipping??! I doubt it.
It is hard to believe that such a high end car has such an obvious fatal flaw and Toyota missed it. Just common sense thing, you know.
It is customery that if a product fails mireably the tester notifys the maker to make sure all the ground is covered before publishing the result. I wonder if CR did that! If not shame on them. Could it be pushing the car beyond its design limit?
CR has been making recommendations on one vehicle for years. This is no different. heck, they've recommended.... ahem ... Toyotas for years by not testing even one vehicle, but by past experience alone. Those recommendations should be thrown out, just like this one and everything they "test" should if you use that standard. Right Ek?
CR is garbage in garbage out.
I have no love lost for Toyota but I wouldn't give this warning any more credence than CR should ever get. Which is ZILCH, ZERO, NADA.
I have no love lost for Toyota but I wouldn't give this warning any more credence than CR should ever get. Which is ZILCH, ZERO, NADA.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
hmmmm. Isnt that the toyota land cruiser? Isnt that a vehicle that has been the same for a number of years now? How wasnt it an issue last year, or the year before?
THe GX460 was redesigned this year.
hmmmm. Isnt that the toyota land cruiser? Isnt that a vehicle that has been the same for a number of years now? How wasnt it an issue last year, or the year before?
THe GX460 was redesigned this year.
Geee know some of you that was bashing CR just a few weeks ago about there prro ratings of some GM..Chrysler and Ford cars are now saying that CR report is right on..... Funny how opinions change when the wind changes directions..
Originally Posted By: rszappa1
Geee know some of you that was bashing CR just a few weeks ago about there prro ratings of some GM..Chrysler and Ford cars are now saying that CR report is right on..... Funny how opinions change when the wind changes directions..
+1
They should test another GX460 before they draw such conclusions.
Geee know some of you that was bashing CR just a few weeks ago about there prro ratings of some GM..Chrysler and Ford cars are now saying that CR report is right on..... Funny how opinions change when the wind changes directions..
+1
They should test another GX460 before they draw such conclusions.
Originally Posted By: brianl703
If the vehicle's stability control is out of whack, the built-in diagnostics should warn the driver of that fact. If there's a fault that the diagnostics can't detect, well...draw your own conclusions about how well that system is engineered.
Yes, but... I haven't reviewed my manual lately (but I have read it -- how many operators can actually claim that...), but IIRC, the VSC light will come on steady if there is a detectable malfunction in the system. The problem is, and this gets to our current society-wide blind faith in electronics and synthetic thought, sometimes there are malfunctions that escape the system's ability to detect them. By way of analogy, try asking a crazy person whether or not he's crazy. Most of them are utterly convinced of their sanity. Certainly it would be better if the system caught all of its malfunctions, but no system can detect them all.
If the vehicle's stability control is out of whack, the built-in diagnostics should warn the driver of that fact. If there's a fault that the diagnostics can't detect, well...draw your own conclusions about how well that system is engineered.
Yes, but... I haven't reviewed my manual lately (but I have read it -- how many operators can actually claim that...), but IIRC, the VSC light will come on steady if there is a detectable malfunction in the system. The problem is, and this gets to our current society-wide blind faith in electronics and synthetic thought, sometimes there are malfunctions that escape the system's ability to detect them. By way of analogy, try asking a crazy person whether or not he's crazy. Most of them are utterly convinced of their sanity. Certainly it would be better if the system caught all of its malfunctions, but no system can detect them all.
The ONLY reason I believe CR might be onto something here is this- They ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS, heap mountains of praise on toyota and lexus vehicles. For them to say something like this indicates that there is a real problem.
Originally Posted By: rszappa1
Geee know some of you that was bashing CR just a few weeks ago about there prro ratings of some GM..Chrysler and Ford cars are now saying that CR report is right on..... Funny how opinions change when the wind changes directions..
That's the opposite of how I see it. More like when CR bashes domestics certain posters say CR is right on. Now that CR criticises an Import they attack CR. I don't give CR any creedence either way.
Geee know some of you that was bashing CR just a few weeks ago about there prro ratings of some GM..Chrysler and Ford cars are now saying that CR report is right on..... Funny how opinions change when the wind changes directions..
That's the opposite of how I see it. More like when CR bashes domestics certain posters say CR is right on. Now that CR criticises an Import they attack CR. I don't give CR any creedence either way.
Yup they are right one this time.........
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