Cops not prosecuted for gunning down hobo, riots

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: chiks
By the way, situations like these are routinely observed in the cop world. They are called "encounters" where the cops do not have to explain to anybody why the perp was killed, nor any administrative actions taken. In essence, these actions are carried out by the graces of the higher ups, including the ruling political figures in the region. There definitely is more to it than meets the eyes, gentlemen


Since you've already stated that you are not a cop, have never ridden along with a cop and have never served in law enforcement, how do you substantiate this claim?

"Routinely observed in the cop world" - of which you have no first-hand knowledge? You may not see the investigations, you may not agree with their findings, but those investigations do happen, routinely.

As I pointed out in my first post on this topic, any person's death is a tragedy. Because of legal requirements, not to mention the threat of tort, Police departments are very careful to ensure that every round discharged is explained and accounted for, and shootings that result in the death of a person are investigated.

Chix - you have accused me, and others, of being cop sympathizers (though I have taken no side on this case, only pleaded to avoid poor judgment)...but it's very clear from this post that you have a strong anti-police bias. You presume the worst. You find them guilty, and unable to be proven innocent.

One might label you a cop-hater.

 

[chiks]

But i am not a cop hater. You have to realize that. My issue is with the way this particular issue has been handled. The knowledge i have, unfortunately, i cannot share how I am privy to it. If you believe me, thanks. If not, i have no grudge against anybody at a personal level. I do not hate people who are ignorant about subjects that i speak of.

All the rules you speak of, accountability, responsibility of every bullet that has been fired, can i have that for this shooting?

 

[chiks]

Let me add, if they had fired 4 shots to disarm / disable this fellow, and that person had died, i have no issues with that. It happens.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: chiks
But i am not a cop hater. You have to realize that. My issue is with the way this particular issue has been handled. The knowledge i have, unfortunately, i cannot share how I am privy to it. If you believe me, thanks. If not, i have no grudge against anybody at a personal level. I do not hate people who are ignorant about subjects that i speak of.

All the rules you speak of, accountability, responsibility of every bullet that has been fired, can i have that for this shooting?


If you have knowledge that you cannot share, that is reasonable in many fields, including mine. But if you cannot disclose how you know, then you are clearly on the wrong side of the law, since it is information that you should NOT know.

IT is one of the fields most responsible for security leaks, leaks of classified information, compromises of people's personal information. Tread very carefully here, if you are found to have information that you should not, you are subject to penalty and potential jail time. People who are found to violate the trust that they are given with information should go to jail...

I doubt that the investigation will be released to the public...it's rare.

You might consider making a FOIA request to the Police Department in question. No doubt, some enterprising young reporters already have. The family's attorney should have already filed a subpoena to obtain the internal departmental documents, including the investigation, pursuant to the lawsuit that I am certain is coming in this case.

 

[chiks]

Originally Posted By: chiks
By the way, situations like these are routinely observed in the cop world. They are called "encounters" where the cops do not have to explain to anybody why the perp was killed, nor any administrative actions taken. In essence, these actions are carried out by the graces of the higher ups, including the ruling political figures in the region. There definitely is more to it than meets the eyes, gentlemen


This has all the makings of a political killing. Sorry if I am so blunt, but I do not have the time to write a novel on an internet forum. Read this report below. How convenient and timely can this failure be?

Quote:
...

Saginaw police technology wasn’t working properly during the shooting, WJRT, Channel 12 also reports.

Channel 12: ABC12 News has learned that approximately 46 gunshots were fired at Milton Hall. It’s still not clear how man times Hall was hit. And while investigators have some video of the incident, most of the high-tech audio and video equipment on the officers and their cars didn’t work properly.

The officers involved in the shooting incident were wearing lapel microphones, microphones that would pick up their conversations and possibly whatever Mr. Hall was saying back to police. We’ve learned those lapel microphones were not working.

Several Saginaw Police cars were equipped with cameras at the scene, but law enforcement officials say only one of the cameras captured the shooting. It’s not clear why the microphones didn’t work, or why the other car cameras didn’t capture the incident.

State police detectives working on the case were unavailable for comments today, a state police representative said. The Saginaw News could not immediately reach Saginaw police officials.
http://birchrunchamber.org/report-homeless-man-killed-by-saginaw-police-was-shot-at-46-times/

 

[chiks]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: chiks
But i am not a cop hater. You have to realize that. My issue is with the way this particular issue has been handled. The knowledge i have, unfortunately, i cannot share how I am privy to it. If you believe me, thanks. If not, i have no grudge against anybody at a personal level. I do not hate people who are ignorant about subjects that i speak of.

All the rules you speak of, accountability, responsibility of every bullet that has been fired, can i have that for this shooting?


If you have knowledge that you cannot share, that is reasonable in many fields, including mine. But if you cannot disclose how you know, then you are clearly on the wrong side of the law, since it is information that you should NOT know.

IT is one of the fields most responsible for security leaks, leaks of classified information, compromises of people's personal information. Tread very carefully here, if you are found to have information that you should not, you are subject to penalty and potential jail time. People who are found to violate the trust that they are given with information should go to jail...

I doubt that the investigation will be released to the public...it's rare.

You might consider making a FOIA request to the Police Department in question. No doubt, some enterprising young reporters already have. The family's attorney should have already filed a subpoena to obtain the internal departmental documents, including the investigation, pursuant to the lawsuit that I am certain is coming in this case.


Which is why I do not want to reveal any details of who/how/when/where. I am glad you understand that part.

 

[chiks]

Now this report from CBS adds another angle. That of training too, and accuracy.

"It was then that the six police officers opened fired on Hall, striking him about 10 times. TV5 has been told that the rough total of rounds fired at Hall is about 46."

46 rounds, 10 hits.
hmm...

Seems like the department of disinformation is working full swing here.

 

[chiks]

My plea to all of you:
Please consider each policeman and their activities, especially such as these, on their own merit.
Do not rush to the rescue of another simply because you feel a fraternal urge to do so.
Look at it from an unbiased viewpoint and proceed accordingly.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: chiks
My plea to all of you:
Please consider each policeman and their activities, especially such as these, on their own merit.
Do not rush to the rescue of another simply because you feel a fraternal urge to do so.
Look at it from an unbiased viewpoint and proceed accordingly.


I pleaded for an unbiased viewpoint from the first post!

But you cannot have an unbiased viewpoint without first having complete information on the facts of what transpired, an understanding of the situation, including the human performance factors, training, kinematics and other tactical considerations, and the legal framework in which it occurred.

Grainy 20 second video clips, bullet counts and yes, hyperbole, simple do not allow a fair, complete and accurate rendering of judgement in any case, particularly one as emotional as a case involving a person's death, like this one did.

You can't rush to judgment - clearly, rescue is one form of judgment, but so is the condemnation, often sarcastic, with which you have continued to paint the officers in this incident.

 

[chiks]

I agree I was mad, and expressed myself with one liners that did not represent a thoughtful approach to my viewpoints. Partly because as I said, I was posting from my mobile device as and when time permits during work. I just want to express my apologies that resulted due to that. No way the majority of the police force deserves that sort of treatment. They do indeed do a wonderful job of preserving the fabric of peace in this country and elsewhere.

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Milton Hall:
"Someone's ... gonna die today, it's gonna be me, or it's gonna be you."



This guy was BEGGING TO BE KILLED......

And his threats got him what he wanted.


If I was an officer and believed that I had a good chance of the perp murdering me I would not take ANY chances, the guy threatening me is going to die, so I can go home to my family.


The side benefit is that one more potential murderer is off the streets.

 

[dwcopple]

how do you think Milton would've fared against 6-8 Marines with no guns??? We need to reassess our training of these officers.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: dwcopple
how do you think Milton would've fared against 6-8 Marines with no guns??? We need to reassess our training of these officers.


He'd still be dead. Arresting people is not their job.

What we *need* to reassess is the Monday morning quarterbacking by people who were not there.

 

[chiks]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: dwcopple
how do you think Milton would've fared against 6-8 Marines with no guns??? We need to reassess our training of these officers.


He'd still be dead. Arresting people is not their job.

What we *need* to reassess is the Monday morning quarterbacking by people who were not there.


#1. Agreed. He would have still been dead, if not, severely and fatally injured.
#2. The motive & method is what the internet is quarterbacking about. at least I am.

Please read these posts if you missed them somehow.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2745284#Post2745284

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2745303#Post2745303

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: chiks
#1. Agreed. He would have still been dead, if not, severely and fatally injured.


It seems to me as if some of these complaints hint at some notion of fair play. It's not supposed to be fair. If you wield a knife at the police and subsequently face 4 bullets, 46 bullets, or 500 bullets, them's the breaks. If you punch a cop, there's a good chance you're going to face a baton, taser, or pepper spray. You wield a weapon, you're going to face a firearm or several firearms. It's not a contest. The police are supposed to neutralize a threat, and that cannot always be accomplished by negotiation. If force has to be used, it has to be sufficient and justifiable. A knife in the hands of mobile person is a lethal threat, and should be responded to with lethal force.

Drop the knife, you won't get shot. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

 

[expat]

A similar case perhaps.......or another slant.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/no-criminal-charges-in-police-shooting-of-native-artist-1.608791

 

[dwcopple]

If you didn't get it, the point I was making about the Marines was that they would've taken this guy without mindless, wildly inaccurate shooting.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: chiks
#1. Agreed. He would have still been dead, if not, severely and fatally injured.


It seems to me as if some of these complaints hint at some notion of fair play. It's not supposed to be fair. If you wield a knife at the police and subsequently face 4 bullets, 46 bullets, or 500 bullets, them's the breaks. If you punch a cop, there's a good chance you're going to face a baton, taser, or pepper spray. You wield a weapon, you're going to face a firearm or several firearms. It's not a contest. The police are supposed to neutralize a threat, and that cannot always be accomplished by negotiation. If force has to be used, it has to be sufficient and justifiable. A knife in the hands of mobile person is a lethal threat, and should be responded to with lethal force.

Drop the knife, you won't get shot. It doesn't get much simpler than that.


One knife weilding idiot dead. Everyone that matters alive. Fair enough to me.

 

[refaller]

Not a cop. However, I talked to a retired one today whom I trust. He was appalled that police would fire so many times. Neither he nor I have a problem with the use of lethal force, but do have a problem with such reckless firing. In the mid 1990s, I went to seminary with a NYPD. I asked if what he carried, he said a .45 revolver. I asked if he would like more rounds than six. He said, "If I ever thought I would need more than six shots, I would be going the other direction." He only had 20 years of experience in NYC. It is not the use of lethal force, it is the manner that makes this outrageous.

ref

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: dwcopple
If you didn't get it, the point I was making about the Marines was that they would've taken this guy without mindless, wildly inaccurate shooting.


You don't know that. For all you know, the guy with the knife could of been top of the class in hand to hand combat.

For all you know, he could of taken out a Marine or two.