Cops not prosecuted for gunning down hobo, riots

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Originally Posted By: OtisBlkR1
...


Im drawing pictures of a short, fat, balding 30's something guy working in the basement of some Business in the 8x10 closet they call the "IT" department.. probably not married, probably never had a girlfriend.. sitting at his little desk.. combing his greasy hair over that big bald spot.. pushing up his taped up black 60's style glasses furiously debating on BITOG about cops.. Jealous.. that he never had the sack, or the physical abilitys to step up and do something important or honerable.. just fighting little battles from that closet.. Before you go home tonight, get that foil hat out of your desk drawer and take it with you.. there watching you.. always watching you...
crackmeup2.gif


Pathetic....


you should stop standing in front of the mirror
laugh.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Trajan
The bazooka scenario has no weight, being that police don't have them. Guess he watched the pilot episode of Sledge Hammer.

But they would do the PIT maneuver or use spike strips.

We've pased ridiculous on the way to fantasy.


So where was the PIT maneuver or the spike strips in this "encounter" ? Care to explain that?

BTW, I have no idea what Sledge Hammer is. Must be one of the corny cop tv serials, I presume.
 
Originally Posted By: OtisBlkR1
and ive watched the video.. those cops should be given honors for being so calm and waiting so long.. they did nothing wrong..

and frankly im not going to post on this particular thread anymore. Nobody can win this conversation..

Done.


Can you try to explain how this actually went about? Rather than just taking sides.
 
Originally Posted By: dwcopple
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell


The side benefit is that he can't threaten any other innocent people ever again. One less
threat to other citizens is a good day too.


This.

I carry a .40 Beretta 96G. Some guy puts me in the same situation, I'm not going to wait 20 minutes.
Do you need 46 rounds to hit him too?


10 round clip with one in the pipe. he would get all 11 hollow points
 
Originally Posted By: chiks
Originally Posted By: Trajan
The bazooka scenario has no weight, being that police don't have them. Guess he watched the pilot episode of Sledge Hammer.

But they would do the PIT maneuver or use spike strips.

We've pased ridiculous on the way to fantasy.


So where was the PIT maneuver or the spike strips in this "encounter" ? Care to explain that?



Same place your speeding vehice was.
 
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Originally Posted By: chiks
Originally Posted By: OtisBlkR1
and ive watched the video.. those cops should be given honors for being so calm and waiting so long.. they did nothing wrong..

and frankly im not going to post on this particular thread anymore. Nobody can win this conversation..

Done.


Can you try to explain how this actually went about? Rather than just taking sides.


against my better judgement i will speak again, this isnt a matter of taking sides, its observing facts.. there was a person with a deadly weapon making clear threats towards police. All the little details in the world dont matter when your responsable (the police) for ending a potentialy deadly situation..

You can argue all day long about how many bullets.. guess what, there is no "limit" thats why police have three magazines for there primary side arm. that means atleast 31 bullets per officer.. how many officers fired ? how many total bullets ? lets do the math.. oh wait, lets NOT.. a person had a deadly weapon, police responded, the individual showed no interest in complying with orders. Threats towards police were made.

what were the police suppose to do.. let a man with a deadly weapon walk away ? whats the point of them being called in the first place.. this guy was obviously bothering somebody.. situation was obviously bad..

In all your IT wisdom Chic.. what Police procedure should have been better... you wanna be the guy that gets close enuff to a nut with a knife to use a taser ?? NOT ON YOUR LIFE..

what about gas ?? tear gas right? police have that right.. wront.. lets throw a gas bomb at a guy with a knife and make a big cloud so we cant see what he's doing.. brilliant..

Well, cops got on bullet prrof vests right.. why didnt they just tackle the guy.. again, you want to be the guy that might get that blade to your neck ? didnt think so..

we can QB this all day, matching deadly force with deadly force is the ONLY solution to provide a safe distance for the officers involved that want to go home at the the end of the day to there familys too..

Chic.. you wanna come up with a better solution for these officers that had to take action ? go ahead, use all your "IT" Wisdom and invent something for us thats a cure all for deadly situations like this.. got a magic computer ray stun gun? that can be used at a safe distance (for officer safety) and knocks a perp out for minutes so they can be disarmed and put into restraints..

lets have it...

Untill then Officers are issued fireamrs to use to protect themselves (primary reason) and the public.

All joking aside, you think its easy carrying that weapon ? having to make the decision to draw that weapon, and absolute worse case scenaro Firing that weapon at another human being.. there aint NOTHING easy about it.. and you painting a bad image of officers that get paid little to serve and protect you.. you should be ashamed of yourself..

If you had family that was in the area of this nut job with the knife and he attacked them, held them hostage at knife point or just flat out killed them.. pretty much anything.. youd be screaming from the rooftops why dont the cops kill that S.O.B. why did they wait so stinking long...

YOU have the luxuary of second guessing the next day and not being in harms way or having to make tuff decisions.. good for you.

God Bless the thin blue line.. Keep us safe..
 
We're wasting our time Otis. He just doesn't get it. Nice to be able to say from a chair what they should of done. Isn't hindsight wonderful?
 
Originally Posted By: Trajan
We're wasting our time Otis. He just doesn't get it. Nice to be able to say from a chair what they should of done. Isn't hindsight wonderful?


amen.
 
Originally Posted By: chiks
DO NOT simply side with your law enforcement brethren simply because of your fraternal urge to do so.


This is an oil forum, not a law enforcement lounge. What percentage of posters here do you think are LEOs?
 
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: dwcopple
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell


The side benefit is that he can't threaten any other innocent people ever again. One less
threat to other citizens is a good day too.


This.

I carry a .40 Beretta 96G. Some guy puts me in the same situation, I'm not going to wait 20 minutes.
Do you need 46 rounds to hit him too?


10 round clip with one in the pipe. he would get all 11 hollow points
So you wouldn't miss and the trained officers did...how much prison time do you think you'd face by emptying a full mag in him???
 
Let us just drop the A bomb on the middle east. That is the solution. Right. Man, I am glad you guys are only shooters and not the brains behind any strategic or tactical operations of this country.
 
"...how much prison time do you think you'd face by emptying a full mag in him???"

You may have missed my earlier posts on this subject - in which two important points were made. First, you fire until the threat stops. When the threat is no longer present, you stop firing.

Next, the number of rounds to stop the threat is quite variable - in several cases, assailants took several rounds, some as many as 20, before they stopped being a threat. The Hollywood portrayal of shootings has little to do with how the real world works (this is true of many Hollywood topics, but let's stick to gun fights for now..). If you watch the movies, one round of 9mm and the assailant goes flying backwards...but in real life, the transfer of kinetic energy into the target is the same as the transfer of kinetic energy to the shooter (physics 101...Newton's 3rd). I am going to be direct here, so if you're squeamish, I apologize...

The damage is done by the way the bullet penetrates and the transfer of that energy into destruction of vital organs or blood vessels. Lots can go wrong with that energy transfer if the bullet hits bone and shatters, or hits muscle and misses vital organs and vessels, or the bullet's nose is clogged by clothing, or clothing prevents penetration. In fact, in many cases where the assailant took several rounds to stop being a threat, many of those factors were present, e.g. large man with winter clothes on PCP, bullet noses are clogged and the round slowed by the clothing, the depth of muscle/fat prevents penetration to vital organs...and the drugs slow the response to pain...so he keeps fighting despite having been shot several times.

So, with that understanding, the answer to your question is:


Absolutely none, if the full mag was needed to stop the threat.




Edit: This is why my kid brother keeps a Sig P220 for home defense; the .45 ACP has a far better record of round effectiveness than the 9mm that many police officers carry.
 
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Originally Posted By: Trajan
We're wasting our time Otis. He just doesn't get it. Nice to be able to say from a chair what they should of done. Isn't hindsight wonderful?

I agree - I think we are wasting our time and keystrokes on this guy. He has his mind made up and all the facts in the world aren't going to change that. He claims to have "facts" when all he has is half baked opinions that are somewhat laughable.

Personally I don't care if 2 bullets or 200 were used. Clearly this guy posed a threat and was given EVERY chance in the world to surrender. But he didn't do that.

In my lifetime I've had one serious encounter with law enforcement which happened in L.A. when I was in my 30's. Long story but someone reported us breaking into an abandoned building. The company I worked for owned the building and was using it for storage. Myself and a coworker were getting some equipment out of it.
When 4 police officers pointed their guns at me I did EXACTLY what I was told to do. Of course I lived to tell the tale.

Over the decades I have had friends who were in law enforcement and have come in contact with many others during the course of conducting business. NONE of them ever wanted to shot anyone. The few that had were emotionally scarred for a very long time if not permanently.
 
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Especially when all you get is one liners "Let's drop a A bomb..."

As an aside, what happenned to the riots the OP said would take place.
 
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I know it wasn't directed to me, but I have been in a situation where someone threatened me with a broken beer bottle. To me, that's not far off from a small pocketknife.

Similar situation as those police officers: it was out on a public street near my home, the man had just committed a crime (sexual in nature on a minor), he had a weapon and was not thinking clearly (probably inebriated), and he was threatening me verbally and physically.

I drew my weapon and remained as calm as I could, spoke clearly and forcefully, and thought I was keeping my patience level because killing a man is a serious thing. This goes on for around 5-10 minutes. Eventually, this guy's brother walked up to the scene and drug him off, begging me not to shoot him, which of course I didn't. He was later arrested without incident.

Should police let the guy walk away? No, I don't think that's an option in their case. But some self control, even if it were asking more than 20 minutes worth, should be exercised. On an 10 hour shift, what's another 20 minutes to talk someone down from a lethal incident. My opinion is to call the fire department and hose the guy until he gives up. He was already cornered.

Were they legal in shooting him, probably. But what is legal and what is moral?
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14
"...how much prison time do you think you'd face by emptying a full mag in him???"

So, with that understanding, the answer to your question is:


Absolutely none, if the full mag was needed to stop the threat.
And if it only took one or two rds? How much then?
 
Originally Posted By: dwcopple
Originally Posted By: Astro14
"...how much prison time do you think you'd face by emptying a full mag in him???"

So, with that understanding, the answer to your question is:


Absolutely none, if the full mag was needed to stop the threat.
And if it only took one or two rds? How much then?


If you understood my post, then you already have your answer.

Why do you keep asking? Do you really not get this stuff? I recommend you pick up a copy of "In the gravest extreme" by Massad Ayoob...I read it 30 years ago...and much of what he said has been re-iterated through Rules on the Use of Force, firearms training, ROE, and other briefs...at least if you read through that book, some of these principles will become more clear.

To the above question, it's actually simple: you shoot until the threat is stopped, might be 1 round, might be 20.

Shoot fewer than required to stop the threat, you (or the person you're defending) end up dead.

Shoot more than required to stop the threat, and you could possibly be charged with excessive force.

But would you be charged? How many rounds is "more"? How rapidly were you able to assess the threat? Remember the reaesonable man standard that I explaine on the first page? That MUST be applied in any analysis after the fact.

Look, combat is never clean, simple, or predictable. For the reasons that I explained above, ending the next threat you may face could take 1 round, or 20 (FBI shootout to which I referred was nearly 20 rounds absorbed by the assailant before a head shot took him down).

And if you empty the mag and the threat is still present? That's why you learn to move towards cover when engaged and why you practice a combat reload (which should take about 1 second with an auto).
 
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