Coollant general guidelines

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mechanicx

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I wanted to list some general guidelines of the various coolants. I'm not saying they are object facts but I believe them to be accurate.

Original Green- IAT Silicated and phosphate, borates. available in concentrate. Was OE. Least agressive with plastics. Tolerant of air. Protects metals well. Despite the silicates, can be used in most vehicles. Proven over several decades. Has a higher pH ~10, 2y/30k mile service, short shelf life. Less tolerate of tap water.

Original Japanese- borderline HOAT. phosphate and benzoate. available in concentrate. OE. slightly more agressive with some plastics. best only for older Japanese cars. 2y/30k mile service. less tolerate of tap water.

G-05 HOAT benzoate, borate, silicate. available in concentrate.OE used. Probably slightly more agressive with some plastics than Green but less agressive than other HOATS and OATs. compatibility close to Green with a complete flush. 5y/150K service. less shelf life and ultimate service life than OAT.

Dexcool-OAT. 2EHA, sodium neodeconoate, or sebcate. OE used. readily available and in concentrate, inexpensive. Probably slightly more agressive with some plastics than Green or G-05. Can sludge in air. long shelf life and service life 5y/150K. Well tested and proven to prevent corrosion. no silicate, phospates or borates. Probably has a high compatibility with other coolants. Morre tolerant of tap water.

Asian vehicle formula-HOAT. sebacate and phospate, no borates or silicates. OE coolant. Pre-mix only, limited availability and high price. Best only in late model asina vehicles. Probably as agressive with plastics as dexcool. Won't sludge in air. Long service life ~5y/100k miles.

Peal Global- OAT. Benzoate and some other unkiwn inhibitor, maybe sebacate or neodeconoate. non OE. Probably as agressive with plastics as Dexcool. available in concentrate but not readily available. may not sludge in air. silicate, phosphate, borate etc. free. Probably more compatibility with other anti-freezes. Long shelf life and service life, and more tolerant of tap water comparable to Dexcool. I don't really see what advantage it gives over Dexcool other than maybe being less likely to sludge in air.

OK that's my opinion and belief of the common anti-freezes.
 
Hmmm, I have not seen any indication that Peak Global Lifetime had any reports of turning into a gel/sludge. Compare that to Dexcool, where there are many reports of the problem. Saying "may not" implies that it might, which isn't supported.

The same with degrading some types of gaskets. You imply that other modern coolants "may" / "probably" also have this problem, but there is no evidence of this. Dexcool is uniquely known to have this problem.

You grouped the service life into 2y/30k and 5y/150k. That ignores that several fluids are permanent/lifetime fills. You even positioned it as a negative. Lifetime fills are sold pre-diluted (often that's the only way they are available) both because they are typically used for top-off and because dilution water purity is critical.

Bottom line: You seem to be biased, dismissing Dexcool's shortcomings and unique problems while suggesting that other coolants will exhibit these faults.
 
Originally Posted By: djb

Hmmm, I have not seen any indication that Peak Global Lifetime had any reports of turning into a gel/sludge. Compare that to Dexcool, where there are many reports of the problem. Saying "may not" implies that it might, which isn't supported.


Well no one is really reporting that the Prestone universal which contain 2EHA sludge, yet I know it can and have seen it. So how can you say because there's no reports that Peak Global does, that it in fact doesn't? Also later model GM cars do not have sludge problems.

Quote:
The same with degrading some types of gaskets. You imply that other modern coolants "may" / "probably" also have this problem, but there is no evidence of this. Dexcool is uniquely known to have this problem.


That's just not the case. All of the OAT's benzoate, sebacate, 2EHA have the ability to degrade silicone, HNBR and certain other types of rubbers and plastics. They are all generally known as plasticizers. Dexcool is not necessarily worse.

Quote:
You grouped the service life into 2y/30k and 5y/150k. That ignores that several fluids are permanent/lifetime fills. You even positioned it as a negative. Lifetime fills are sold pre-diluted (often that's the only way they are available) both because they are typically used for top-off and because dilution water purity is critical.


First I don't believe in lifetime fills and don't even know of any for light-duty vehicles. 150K miles is about the upper limit even for FF. Some Asian recommend up to 10 years for the FF, which seems excessive, but subsequent service is 5 years.

Quote:
Bottom line: You seem to be biased, dismissing Dexcool's shortcomings and unique problems while suggesting that other coolants will exhibit these faults.


And you seem biased against Dexcool. I never made any claims of which OAT/HOAT is most agressive with plastics other than to say G-05 is probably the least aggressive. As I said all the OAT/HOATs are general plasticizers and can degrade certain plastics and elastomers. You are presenting no proof that Peak Global or Asian formula would've worked better with the gaskets Dexcool had problems with. If you change the gasket material then Dexcool doesn't have problems. I've actually mentioned lots of shortcoming of Dexcool.

I don't get your criticism. You are not considering that it's a question of specific gasket compatibility with the specific inhibitors. Dexcool could work fine in an asian vehicle because of the gasket material used, yet not work in a GM vehicle that was FF, meanwhile Peak Global or Asian formula might not offer anymore compatibility.
 
Nice review, mechanicx.

I think (don't know) that we are clinging to old ways with the recommendation on the original green of 2 years/30K.

The new conventional/original green coolants are now low silicate. The Zerex site shows that their conventional green has LESS silicates than their G05. They also recommend 5yr/100k with their conventional and it can be used in diesels with the addition of SCA (never would do this with the old green).

So, I imagine that now a days the green could conservatively be used for 3 years/60K. Just my opinion.
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I wanted to list some general guidelines of the various coolants. I'm not saying they are object facts but I believe them to be accurate.

Original Green- IAT Silicated and phosphate, borates. available in concentrate. Was OE. Least agressive with plastics. Tolerant of air. Protects metals well. Despite the silicates, can be used in most vehicles. Proven over several decades. Has a higher pH ~10, 2y/30k mile service, short shelf life. Less tolerate of tap water.

Original Japanese- borderline HOAT. phosphate and benzoate. available in concentrate. OE. slightly more agressive with some plastics. best only for older Japanese cars. 2y/30k mile service. less tolerate of tap water.

G-05 HOAT benzoate, borate, silicate. available in concentrate.OE used. Probably slightly more agressive with some plastics than Green but less agressive than other HOATS and OATs. compatibility close to Green with a complete flush. 5y/150K service. less shelf life and ultimate service life than OAT.

Dexcool-OAT. 2EHA, sodium neodeconoate, or sebcate. OE used. readily available and in concentrate, inexpensive. Probably slightly more agressive with some plastics than Green or G-05. Can sludge in air. long shelf life and service life 5y/150K. Well tested and proven to prevent corrosion. no silicate, phospates or borates. Probably has a high compatibility with other coolants. Morre tolerant of tap water.

Asian vehicle formula-HOAT. sebacate and phospate, no borates or silicates. OE coolant. Pre-mix only, limited availability and high price. Best only in late model asina vehicles. Probably as agressive with plastics as dexcool. Won't sludge in air. Long service life ~5y/100k miles.

Peal Global- OAT. Benzoate and some other unkiwn inhibitor, maybe sebacate or neodeconoate. non OE. Probably as agressive with plastics as Dexcool. available in concentrate but not readily available. may not sludge in air. silicate, phosphate, borate etc. free. Probably more compatibility with other anti-freezes. Long shelf life and service life, and more tolerant of tap water comparable to Dexcool. I don't really see what advantage it gives over Dexcool other than maybe being less likely to sludge in air.

OK that's my opinion and belief of the common anti-freezes.



what are your qualifications to make the above statements? are you a degreed chemical engineer? Batchelors or masters degree in chemistry? Or simple layman with an opinion?
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: djb

Hmmm, I have not seen any indication that Peak Global Lifetime had any reports of turning into a gel/sludge. Compare that to Dexcool, where there are many reports of the problem. Saying "may not" implies that it might, which isn't supported.


Well no one is really reporting that the Prestone universal which contain 2EHA sludge, yet I know it can and have seen it. So how can you say because there's no reports that Peak Global does, that it in fact doesn't?


It's hard to prove a negative.
Long term use may show unexpected problems with Peak Global, but it has been in use for long enough that significant drawbacks are unlikely.

We do know that there are significant problems with Dexcool, and that they didn't take long to show up.


Originally Posted By: mechanicx

First I don't believe in lifetime fills and don't even know of any for light-duty vehicles. 150K miles is about the upper limit even for FF. Some Asian recommend up to 10 years for the FF, which seems excessive, but subsequent service is 5 years.


You don't have to "believe" in lifetime fills for it to be a distinct category. Many new cars come with lifetime coolant and Peak Global Lifetime, as name implies, is...
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx

First I don't believe in lifetime fills and don't even know of any for light-duty vehicles.


Dex-Cool is a lifetime fill when it's installed in a Saab. Or so Saab says.
 
i use it in everything, coolgard, coolgardII.

samples have always come back excellent.

recently flushed my 07 6.0 and filled with coolgard, thermostat stuck open @ 91,000 mi., so i figured since i had to drain it i might as well flush.

i am starting to sound like a deere sales rep on here,(i'm not) but i have used their products for over 25 years with no problems whatsoever, dealership is nearby and have always been able to get parts whenever wherever within 24 hrs., they have even dropped off parts after hours at my house.

when a business goes out of their way to take care of customers, i like to give them all of the return business i can.

all of their fluids are top quality, use with confidence
 
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Nice review, mechanicx.

I think (don't know) that we are clinging to old ways with the recommendation on the original green of 2 years/30K.

The new conventional/original green coolants are now low silicate. The Zerex site shows that their conventional green has LESS silicates than their G05. They also recommend 5yr/100k with their conventional and it can be used in diesels with the addition of SCA (never would do this with the old green).

So, I imagine that now a days the green could conservatively be used for 3 years/60K. Just my opinion.


Yeah Zerex does claim the Green can last longer now. Although, I think Green has been low silicate for a while because like you pointed out the Diesels want a low silicate formula to add SCA, and GM had a low silcate spec. I do think 2 years/30K miles is conservative but I still think it is wise to follow. Lowering the silicates won't really make the anti-freeze last longer but actually less long. The Green's silicates get depleted and then bad things happen to the engine and cooling system. If you look at Zerex's PDS's G-05 is actually as low or lower in silicates as their Green.
 
Originally Posted By: qship1996
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I wanted to list some general guidelines of the various coolants. I'm not saying they are object facts but I believe them to be accurate.

Original Green- IAT Silicated and phosphate, borates. available in concentrate. Was OE. Least agressive with plastics. Tolerant of air. Protects metals well. Despite the silicates, can be used in most vehicles. Proven over several decades. Has a higher pH ~10, 2y/30k mile service, short shelf life. Less tolerate of tap water.

Original Japanese- borderline HOAT. phosphate and benzoate. available in concentrate. OE. slightly more agressive with some plastics. best only for older Japanese cars. 2y/30k mile service. less tolerate of tap water.

G-05 HOAT benzoate, borate, silicate. available in concentrate.OE used. Probably slightly more agressive with some plastics than Green but less agressive than other HOATS and OATs. compatibility close to Green with a complete flush. 5y/150K service. less shelf life and ultimate service life than OAT.

Dexcool-OAT. 2EHA, sodium neodeconoate, or sebcate. OE used. readily available and in concentrate, inexpensive. Probably slightly more agressive with some plastics than Green or G-05. Can sludge in air. long shelf life and service life 5y/150K. Well tested and proven to prevent corrosion. no silicate, phospates or borates. Probably has a high compatibility with other coolants. Morre tolerant of tap water.

Asian vehicle formula-HOAT. sebacate and phospate, no borates or silicates. OE coolant. Pre-mix only, limited availability and high price. Best only in late model asina vehicles. Probably as agressive with plastics as dexcool. Won't sludge in air. Long service life ~5y/100k miles.

Peal Global- OAT. Benzoate and some other unkiwn inhibitor, maybe sebacate or neodeconoate. non OE. Probably as agressive with plastics as Dexcool. available in concentrate but not readily available. may not sludge in air. silicate, phosphate, borate etc. free. Probably more compatibility with other anti-freezes. Long shelf life and service life, and more tolerant of tap water comparable to Dexcool. I don't really see what advantage it gives over Dexcool other than maybe being less likely to sludge in air.

OK that's my opinion and belief of the common anti-freezes.



what are your qualifications to make the above statements? are you a degreed chemical engineer? Batchelors or masters degree in chemistry? Or simple layman with an opinion?


It's not necessary to have a chemistry degree or chemical engineering degree for one to make the above statements. I never claimed to be a chemist or an anti-freeze industry insider. If you expect those guys to give you useful and honest info for free you'll be disappointed. Most of them are company men and have a vested interest to promote their products and to leave the end users in the dark. If you don't like my opinion which was based on the best info I could find on the topic then that's fine.
 
Originally Posted By: djb
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: djb

Hmmm, I have not seen any indication that Peak Global Lifetime had any reports of turning into a gel/sludge. Compare that to Dexcool, where there are many reports of the problem. Saying "may not" implies that it might, which isn't supported.


Well no one is really reporting that the Prestone universal which contain 2EHA sludge, yet I know it can and have seen it. So how can you say because there's no reports that Peak Global does, that it in fact doesn't?


It's hard to prove a negative.
Long term use may show unexpected problems with Peak Global, but it has been in use for long enough that significant drawbacks are unlikely.


Right it's hard to prove a negative and that's why I claimed it isn't known for sure PGL wouldn't sludge. I don't think it will, but Dexcool doesn't seem to sludge anymore either maybe because the cars with the incompatible gaskets and bad caps and reservoir designs are disappearing. I don't think PGL can sludge but I haven't seen it in use much.

Quote:
We do know that there are significant problems with Dexcool, and that they didn't take long to show up.


But what I'm saying is we don't know what would happen if those same vehicles were completely filled with PGL. Not all vehicles sludge with Dexcool. It depends on the design.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: mechanicx

First I don't believe in lifetime fills and don't even know of any for light-duty vehicles. 150K miles is about the upper limit even for FF. Some Asian recommend up to 10 years for the FF, which seems excessive, but subsequent service is 5 years.


You don't have to "believe" in lifetime fills for it to be a distinct category. Many new cars come with lifetime coolant and Peak Global Lifetime, as name implies, is...


Well some transmission come with lifetime fill too, but that doesn't mean I think the transmission fluid is the best or can best protect for the lifetime without being changed. There's no good reason to believe PGL can last longer than Dexcool. "Lifetime" is a vague claim really because the life of the vehicle or unit is not really specified. And why not extend that lifetime with new fluid?
 
Originally Posted By: brianl703
Originally Posted By: mechanicx

First I don't believe in lifetime fills and don't even know of any for light-duty vehicles.


Dex-Cool is a lifetime fill when it's installed in a Saab. Or so Saab says.


I didn't know Saab was cliaming lifetime for the anti-freeze. I guess the expected lifetime of a Saab is less than 150K miles
wink.gif
.
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I wanted to list some general guidelines of the various coolants. I'm not saying they are object facts but I believe them to be accurate.

Original Green- IAT Silicated and phosphate, borates. available in concentrate. Was OE. Least agressive with plastics. Tolerant of air. Protects metals well. Despite the silicates, can be used in most vehicles. Proven over several decades. Has a higher pH ~10, 2y/30k mile service, short shelf life. Less tolerate of tap water.

Original Japanese- borderline HOAT. phosphate and benzoate. available in concentrate. OE. slightly more agressive with some plastics. best only for older Japanese cars. 2y/30k mile service. less tolerate of tap water.

G-05 HOAT benzoate, borate, silicate. available in concentrate.OE used. Probably slightly more agressive with some plastics than Green but less agressive than other HOATS and OATs. compatibility close to Green with a complete flush. 5y/150K service. less shelf life and ultimate service life than OAT.

Dexcool-OAT. 2EHA, sodium neodeconoate, or sebcate. OE used. readily available and in concentrate, inexpensive. Probably slightly more agressive with some plastics than Green or G-05. Can sludge in air. long shelf life and service life 5y/150K. Well tested and proven to prevent corrosion. no silicate, phospates or borates. Probably has a high compatibility with other coolants. Morre tolerant of tap water.

Asian vehicle formula-HOAT. sebacate and phospate, no borates or silicates. OE coolant. Pre-mix only, limited availability and high price. Best only in late model asina vehicles. Probably as agressive with plastics as dexcool. Won't sludge in air. Long service life ~5y/100k miles.

Peal Global- OAT. Benzoate and some other unkiwn inhibitor, maybe sebacate or neodeconoate. non OE. Probably as agressive with plastics as Dexcool. available in concentrate but not readily available. may not sludge in air. silicate, phosphate, borate etc. free. Probably more compatibility with other anti-freezes. Long shelf life and service life, and more tolerant of tap water comparable to Dexcool. I don't really see what advantage it gives over Dexcool other than maybe being less likely to sludge in air.

OK that's my opinion and belief of the common anti-freezes.
..I was wondering if you had an opinion concerning the BASF Glysantin G30(G12+)..under what OAT catagory would this coolant fall under..when looking up the MSDS ..it only states Ethandiol and R22 ... http://www.commaoil.com/productsguide/view/6/351
 
Originally Posted By: Petersubaru
[/quote]..I was wondering if you had an opinion concerning the BASF Glysantin G30(G12+)..under what OAT catagory would this coolant fall under..when looking up the MSDS ..it only states Ethandiol and R22 ... http://www.commaoil.com/productsguide/view/6/351


I think the Ethandiol is just another name for ethylene glycol and the R22 might be the dye but I'm not sure. The G30 (G12+) is a straight OAT obviously, sort of like Dexcool or Peak Global. I don't know much about the European coolant and I don't know what the OAT inhibitor is in G12+, but as I understand it VW is a major user and before that they used G12 and one or the other caused some problems. Now there's G12++ that is back to the silicate H-OAT formula. It's pretty confusing the Europeans have so many coolants.
 
...perhaps confusing, but when looking at the Glysantin web site, I get the impression that there is only 2 coolant formulas to consider for over 90% of most car and truck applications ...G48(combination of silicate,sebacic,& 2-ethyl)..and..G30(G12+ no silicates or phos) as shown under the title of "brochures" for truck and car...the 3rd is more specialized.. G40(G12++ silicated new technology and gentler corrosion inhibitors??) ... more designed for high performance motors..supposed to have greater ability in extracting and removing heat to the radiator?? http://www.performancechemicals.basf.com...santin/products
 
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Well I say confusing because you have G11, G12, G12+, G12++, not to mention G-05 all used recently and many other Glysantin coolants vs. American green and Dexcool as the only OE American coolant versions although G-05 is also used. The asians only had 2 coolants for the most part as well. The G48 based on what you listed is similar to dexcool. I think VW is moving to G12++. I don't know where you could get any of the coolants besides the dealer so they don't make sense to me to put into anything other than a Euro car that calls for it.
 
from a "marketing" point of view it seems that once again the next generation of coolants will follow the classic battle lines of "silicate vs phosphate",(example of G12++ vs Asian formula)..containing lesser amounts of each, packaged within the lastest technology(whatever that is??) as a "lifetime or Extra long life" formula...
 
That sounds about right. The Euros don't seem to be going completely away from silicates any time soon. The Asian seem stuck on phosphates and no silicates. And GM probably won't move away from Dexcool. So the coolant potpouri will continue.

I think it would take regulations to standardize coolants. I'm not a big fan of regulations, but sometimes they are helpful. Personally, I think all new cars sold in NA should be required to be certified on one coolant formula even if that is Dexcool. It would be a nice as an added bonus if they were also required to back spec it for at least 5 or 10 years.
 
Originally Posted By: Petersubaru
...perhaps confusing, but when looking at the Glysantin web site, I get the impression that there is only 2 coolant formulas to consider for over 90% of most car and truck applications ...G48(combination of silicate,sebacic,& 2-ethyl)..and..G30(G12+ no silicates or phos) as shown under the title of "brochures" for truck and car...the 3rd is more specialized.. G40(G12++ silicated new technology and gentler corrosion inhibitors??) ... more designed for high performance motors..supposed to have greater ability in extracting and removing heat to the radiator?? http://www.performancechemicals.basf.com...santin/products
..I just wanted to include in my own post above what I had earlier forgotten...somewhere on one of the German auto parts suppliers web page, makes mention that the G40(G12++) does Not contain any silicates as some people may think, but rather the term "silicon additive technology" has more to do with coolant/sealant compatibility in cars that this coolant is specified for..obviously more confusion here..and that for some cars the OAT coolants are eating the silicon based gaskets..no mention of sludging or plastic related problems
 
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