Conventional oils and varnish

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Varnish is the precursor to sludge. It is a sticky layer of precipitate that indicates that the contaminant carrying capacity of the lubricant was exceeded. It is generally deposited on cooler areas and/or areas of low oil flow, which is why the cylinder head surface is a common location to observe it. This also means that it has a propensity to build up in low-flow areas like ring lands where the lubricant is not in forced motion. Accumulation in this area results in oil control problems, which then present as consumption and can ultimately result in ring sticking, blow-by and loss of compression if it gets bad enough.

While engine designs are generally tolerant of a bit of varnish and thus typically asymptomatic, this should not cause one to thus conclude that varnish is harmless. Like many human maladies, the causes of which are well-known, an underlying condition that hasn't manifested into something impactful is still a condition nonetheless.

As I'm sure many recall, BMW reduced their OCI length due to issues they were experiencing, so I'd be wary of using that marque as an endorsement. As engines become more complex, various systems will, as Trav demonstrated, be less tolerant of this type of accumulation. Low-tension rings will be more inclined to stick for example, leading to consumption.

I'm not endorsing it by no means, I'm saying a little varnish is nothing to worry about in most cases where poor engine design isn't going to create a problem as a result. I'll take the literally thousands of engines I've seen with varnish operating just fine other than valve cover leaks or a faulty rocker or whatever was the issue that had us looking into the engine over some forum internet worry. Sorry. Not gonna change my mind on it.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by StevieC
Not necessarily. The BMW's seem to always have a light golden colour regardless of miles somtimes it's got a redish hue to it but I wouldn't consider it more heavy varnish, I think it's just oil chemistry being different leaving a different shade of varnish. The GM V-8's seem to get to the dark brown state and never accumulate more and I've seen these at 60,000 miles to upwards of 300K miles. Only place I've seen it really heavy is where oil wasn't changed when it should be and there was a regular occurrence of this. Maybe I got lucky and didn't see the other side of this but I doubt it with the thousands of vehicles through the door over the years.






I can believe this. I remember engines way back when that ran on Castrol GTX and they all had that orange hue varnish that mechanics said was typical of Castrol.

It was common in the Chrysler 2.5's and 2.2 4 cylinders where factory OCI's were followed instead of the 3K miles most did out of habit. They all ran fine till the junk points and I can attest to the heavy varnish we would see in these both top and bottom end.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Let me clarify for you Astro14, because I didn't walk it back.

Varnish won't hurt anything. It doesn't in the vast majority of engines out there I've rebuilt and taken apart more than I can count myself and with my dad of all makes/models/types etc. I assure you Varnish is a common occurence at all levels be it light, moderate, heavy.

The GM 8 cylinders have far heavier varnish on average from the ones I've seen than the lighter varnish in the spool valve picture Trav provided. This would indicate that it's a poor design of said spool valve susceptible to light varnish. The OE should have engineered it to either prevent varnish formation from operating that part at a lower temperature or specified a lubricant that could handle the stress placed upon it or allowed a tolerance for some varnish build-up to occur without affecting the parts operation. It was run on Synthetic so most likely if it was run on conventional it would also have failed seeing as conventional is inferior to synthetic in this regard. Why aren't all spool up valves failing then, surely this isn't the only varnished one given the examples I site from Euro engines that are usually lightly to moderately varnished Always...

Are there some engines and components that are a poor design where it can affect them, YES as I mentioned, that isn't the norm though. So therefore my comment reflects the NORM. Sorry for not having an asterisk and a disclaimer accompanying it with legal jargon. I'll be sure to consult my lawyer in future so that it's spelled out in the fine print so as to alleviate any misunderstanding.

I see Trav has a passenger on his horse.

Where do you get this idea that most Euro engines are varnished? How many Euro engines have you really had apart (any engine for that matter)? I see a lot of spotless Euro engines, the last one was a VW 1.4 TSI that had long OCI per the OLM and it was clean as a whistle. My old winter Beetle and newer R spec Beetle 2.0 are both spotless. I service quite a few with over 200K on them and they are not all varnished up.

One reason Euro engines don't varnish up if taken care of is their crankcase venting systems, the sometimes undersized conventional PCV valves are not very common on Euro engines.
The GM engine you show a picture of may run okay but I can assure you if you did a leak down or even a simple compression test it would be less than optimal, I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't have a few low cylinders.

Heat is one of the main contributors to varnish, conventional oils are not as good as synthetics in modern hotter running engines, that's the reason there are no high spec conventional oils. I don't believe there is even a dexos approved conventional which is a relatively low spec.
You made a blanket statement then you knew you blew it and walked it back with another post, the thread postings proves it. No problem with that its just you go off on this typical ranting about how you are right. You even tossed your dad under the bus head first when you posted about hitting lug nuts with the impact on max by claiming he did it too for 50 years of whatever.
If he is as good a mechanic as you say he didn't and doesn't do that at all.

 

[StevieC]

The Euro engines we have taken apart for repair have ALL been varnished to some degree. This number would be in the hundreds and would span about 25 years. This is where the factory OCI is followed.

I made a blanket statement based on the majority of engines out there. You are the one that wanted to blow it into something that it's not. I explained that it's poor engine design if the varnish affected said engine because there are far too many engines out there with varnish operating just fine to prove otherwise and then offered the GM V-8's and Euro engines as an example to support this.

I've seen enough engines to know this isn't a problem and if you think it is being a mechanic then you are lying to yourself or you have some weird case of statistical anomalies in your part of the world.

 

[OVERKILL]

My sister's 330i engine when we did the valve cover gasket. This was likely factory OCI (OLM) using BMW 5w30:

My wife's 328i engine when we did the valve cover gasket shortly after picking it up. No idea what was run in it. This was a cheap high mileage car. VANOS was definitely not working perfectly. There is heavy red varnish as well as some sludge up near the VANOS units:

My M5's S62 engine through the fill cap, zero varnish. I was running Mobil 1 0w-40 in it, no idea what the previous owner used:

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by StevieC
I explained that it's poor engine design if the varnish affected said engine because there are far too many engines out there with varnish operating just fine to prove otherwise and then offered the GM V-8's and Euro engines as an example to support this.


A completely ambiguous claim without any metrics associated with it. What constitutes "operating just fine"? Acceptable oil consumption? No observed blue smoke out the back? Owner doesn't think it feels slow? The impact of varnish build-up is not obvious. It's a progressive condition that, depending on where one is in the accumulation process, provides no hard warning that something is going on. It can be something as little as a reduction in the performance of the oil control rings causing a slight increase in consumption, something that may not even be noticed by Joe Average and his Quick Lube OCI. It could be a sticking HLA on start-up that rattles a bit. The engine could be down a few compression points, is Joe Average going to notice that? Of course not. These are all valid metrics that indicate a measurable impact, but they are not significant enough for Jane or Joe Average consumer to realize.

ANY engine design will be affected, at some point, if the varnish build-up is significant enough OR if the varnish build-up is in a location that can cause issues, like with Trav's Honda example. And yes, in that case, I would certainly say it's a design issue, that vulnerability to Joe Average maintenance practices wasn't adequately tested for during development.

Varnish is, at its most fundamental, an undesirable deposit that if allowed to accumulate in volume, will eventually have a measurable impact on the operating characteristics of an engine.

 

[StevieC]

Sorry not changing my mind. I agree to disagree. I've seen more engines and some varnish makes no difference in the majority of cases and in fact ALL cases I've personally witnessed and we have repaired a lot of stuff. We had one Chevy V8 in 3 times over its life for valve cover and oil pan re-sealing and from 60K (miles) it had varnish and the owner retired it at 200K miles and it had no increase in varnish and certainly no sludging when we did the seals again at 180K both top and bottom. 1 Case but proves my point as every other vehicle we have seen with varnish top or bottom never lived a shortened life or then incurred sludging because it was somehow a precursor.

Oh and this...
Quote
A blanket statement is a claim that covers a whole situation...

A blanket statement is a generalization - something that covers everything, like a metaphorical blanket. There is an implication when using "blanket statement" that it may be an over-generalization.

Source
It appears folks don't understand the meaning...

That's it.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Sorry not changing my mind. I agree to disagree.


I have no delusions that your mind will be changed, we've had enough of these exchanges on here that I'm well aware of the futility of that endeavour, I'm addressing these points for the benefit of those who may be reading the exchange.

Originally Posted by StevieC
I've seen more engines and some varnish makes no difference in the majority of cases and in fact ALL cases I've personally witnessed and we have repaired a lot of stuff. We had one Chevy V8 in 3 times over its life for valve cover and oil pan re-sealing and from 60K (miles) it had varnish and the owner retired it at 200K miles and it had no increase in varnish and certainly no sludging when we did the seals again at 180K both top and bottom. 1 Case but proves my point as every other vehicle we have seen with varnish top or bottom never lived a shortened life or then incurred sludging because it was somehow a precursor.


So you did before and after leak-down and compression tests on this engine and did an oil consumption test or is this simply another "well it didn't blow up so it was fine" sort of metric here?

It's a precursor as defined in the page from the Tribology text I provided earlier. You don't have to like it, but you can't very well refute it. That doesn't meant that it is always going to train-wreck into sludge, take a look at the diagram, see what is required for sludge to form, if those conditions aren't present, you'll likely just end up with more and more varnish if the conditions required to create the varnish in the first place are maintained. There are plenty of engines that were run on Quick Lube or dealer bulk and then later switched to perhaps a better lubricant that stopped new accumulation. Our Expedition had varnish when we purchased it, my maintenance regimen reduced it considerably as well removing significant accumulation from the ring-land area that resulted in some interesting discoveries in the oil filter.

The presence of varnish, by virtue of its constituency, is undesirable in an engine. Its impact can range from purely cosmetic at the earliest stages to significant mechanical impairment. The latter generally requires significant neglect to achieve sufficient accumulation. Varnish and sludge accumulation are not irreversible. There are conditions required for it to occur and eliminating those conditions will stop the accumulation process. Frequent changes at that point may actually reduce it. A vehicle out of warranty no longer serviced by a dealer and taken to an indy using a better lubricant may be a good representation of that scenario, which is worth considering given the context of this discussion.

 

[StevieC]

200K miles on a Chevy V8 that had it's whole life varnished seems to indicate to me the leakdown test would have been fine when it was junked due to rust considering it had the same amount of varnish and no further accumulation of varish or creation of sludge from the 60K miles we saw it at until the 180K we resealed it up at and there are many like it we saw and because it's common with these engines to see varnish. Doesn't affect it whatsoever.

Had I known we would be arguing about this at some later date I would have run the leakdown test but I don't own a Hot-Tub Time Machine or a Delorian that can travel back in time, so this was unforseen but seeing as none of these vehicles had driveability issues and performed just fine I think it's safe to bet they are fine*. (*Refer to legal jargon at bottom)



*Legal Jargon: Based on eye witness testimony and first hand experiences only. Engine tear downs, measurements and leak-down testing was not performed so these claims can't be verified beyond vehicle performance at time of witnessing and doesn't meet "the bent out of shape" or "Knickers in a knot" BITOG members approval standards. Ask your mechanic if this claim is right for your engine design. Call 567-5309 for more details. Also anyone reading this post or legal jargon in whole or in part agrees that Amsoil is the bestest ever and nothing else compares shady marketing aside of course.

 

[CR94]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
... Our Expedition had varnish when we purchased it, my maintenance regimen reduced it considerably as well removing significant accumulation from the ring-land area that resulted in some interesting discoveries in the oil filter. ...
Please elaborate. What did those "discoveries" look like, and how did you determine where they came from? Did performance or measured compression improve thereafter?

Thanx!

 

[Triple_Se7en]

Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by StevieC
Not necessarily. The BMW's seem to always have a light golden colour regardless of miles somtimes it's got a redish hue to it but I wouldn't consider it more heavy varnish, I think it's just oil chemistry being different leaving a different shade of varnish. The GM V-8's seem to get to the dark brown state and never accumulate more and I've seen these at 60,000 miles to upwards of 300K miles. Only place I've seen it really heavy is where oil wasn't changed when it should be and there was a regular occurrence of this. Maybe I got lucky and didn't see the other side of this but I doubt it with the thousands of vehicles through the door over the years.



I can believe this. I remember engines way back when that ran on Castrol GTX and they all had that orange hue varnish that mechanics said was typical of Castrol.


I haven't used Castrol since the 80s and their notorious alignment with varnish.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by CR94
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
... Our Expedition had varnish when we purchased it, my maintenance regimen reduced it considerably as well removing significant accumulation from the ring-land area that resulted in some interesting discoveries in the oil filter. ...
Please elaborate. What did those "discoveries" look like, and how did you determine where they came from? Did performance or measured compression improve thereafter?

Thanx!


Did not do any before or after compression tests because I was unaware that the deposits were there until they started showing up in the oil filter. The engine was not filthy under the valve cover, just a slight yellow hue to the head and some varnish on the cams:

This is what I started to find in the filter after running Mobil 1 5w-20 in it:

This eventually tapered off after a few OCI's.

I tried running Redline in it to clean up some of the varnish, and had some limited success:

I cannot say I could ascertain any improvement in performance. It did however eventually eliminate any discernible consumption between changes on Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w-30, which is what I eventually settled on for it.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by Trav
Originally Posted by StevieC
Let me clarify for you Astro14, because I didn't walk it back.

Varnish won't hurt anything. It doesn't in the vast majority of engines out there I've rebuilt and taken apart more than I can count myself and with my dad of all makes/models/types etc. I assure you Varnish is a common occurence at all levels be it light, moderate, heavy.

The GM 8 cylinders have far heavier varnish on average from the ones I've seen than the lighter varnish in the spool valve picture Trav provided. This would indicate that it's a poor design of said spool valve susceptible to light varnish. The OE should have engineered it to either prevent varnish formation from operating that part at a lower temperature or specified a lubricant that could handle the stress placed upon it or allowed a tolerance for some varnish build-up to occur without affecting the parts operation. It was run on Synthetic so most likely if it was run on conventional it would also have failed seeing as conventional is inferior to synthetic in this regard. Why aren't all spool up valves failing then, surely this isn't the only varnished one given the examples I site from Euro engines that are usually lightly to moderately varnished Always...

Are there some engines and components that are a poor design where it can affect them, YES as I mentioned, that isn't the norm though. So therefore my comment reflects the NORM. Sorry for not having an asterisk and a disclaimer accompanying it with legal jargon. I'll be sure to consult my lawyer in future so that it's spelled out in the fine print so as to alleviate any misunderstanding.

I see Trav has a passenger on his horse.

Where do you get this idea that most Euro engines are varnished? How many Euro engines have you really had apart (any engine for that matter)? I see a lot of spotless Euro engines, the last one was a VW 1.4 TSI that had long OCI per the OLM and it was clean as a whistle. My old winter Beetle and newer R spec Beetle 2.0 are both spotless. I service quite a few with over 200K on them and they are not all varnished up.

One reason Euro engines don't varnish up if taken care of is their crankcase venting systems, the sometimes undersized conventional PCV valves are not very common on Euro engines.
The GM engine you show a picture of may run okay but I can assure you if you did a leak down or even a simple compression test it would be less than optimal, I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't have a few low cylinders.

Heat is one of the main contributors to varnish, conventional oils are not as good as synthetics in modern hotter running engines, that's the reason there are no high spec conventional oils. I don't believe there is even a dexos approved conventional which is a relatively low spec.
You made a blanket statement then you knew you blew it and walked it back with another post, the thread postings proves it. No problem with that its just you go off on this typical ranting about how you are right. You even tossed your dad under the bus head first when you posted about hitting lug nuts with the impact on max by claiming he did it too for 50 years of whatever.
If he is as good a mechanic as you say he didn't and doesn't do that at all.






There is a lot of assumptions and general statements here. German engines in particular are among the least reliable engines during warranty in the industry this is not do to having engines which do not varnish. Dispite having larger sumps and tougher ACEA specs European engines fail at a higher rate than contemporaries. Sorry Trav this is the truth.

 

[CR94]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
... This is what I started to find in the filter after running Mobil 1 5w-20 in it: ...

I cannot say I could ascertain any improvement in performance. It did however eventually eliminate any discernible consumption between changes on Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w-30, which is what I eventually settled on for it.
Thanks for the detailed report. I find "carbon" particles in filters, but never nearly that much.

My Prius lived its first 61.5k miles exclusively on TGMO 0-20, then another 8.6k on Rural King (Warren Oil) 0W-20. The Toyota filter I removed with 17.5k (i.e., two oil changes) at that point came out looking remarkably like new, aside from a few carbon particles barely large enough to see without a microscope. For the following interval, I used Pennzoil Platinum 5W-20. At the end of that 9.5k interval, the Purolator filter media came out looking very black, compared to the way the earlier Toyota one looked. However, it did not have large chunks such as your photo shows. I still wonder whether that meant the Pennzoil loosened up carbon that had accumulated (in ring lands?) with the TGMO, or the Purolator captured smaller particles that the Toyota filters missed.

 

[JAG]

That's interesting, Overkill. Some cleaning definitely occurred. I agree that the carbon chunks are most likely from the pistons and rings.

Stevie, you'd get much less grief here if you wrote with honesty. I'm talking about honesty about acknowledging when you misspeak and honesty when you go on the very common defensive. The trickery doesn't work and you turn yourself into a target.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by JAG
That's interesting, Overkill. Some cleaning definitely occurred. I agree that the carbon chunks are most likely from the pistons and rings.

Stevie, you'd get much less grief here if you wrote with honesty. I'm talking about honesty about acknowledging when you misspeak and honesty when you go on the very common defensive. The trickery doesn't work and you turn yourself into a target.


I don't see it that way. Sorry if you think otherwise and for the record.... Ahem. I don't give a "you know what" what someone thinks. I don't have to prove anything to anyone.
When someone wants to argue and I feel it's nonsense I will engage just for sport now. So keep getting on that horse I got lots of time between calls.

 

[JAG]

You proved yourself wrong already and it's written down. You also proved to be unwilling to admit it. There is nothing to argue about that! So, the criticisms will keep coming in the future.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted by dave1251
There is a lot of assumptions and general statements here. German engines in particular are among the least reliable engines during warranty in the industry this is not do to having engines which do not varnish. Dispite having larger sumps and tougher ACEA specs European engines fail at a higher rate than contemporaries. Sorry Trav this is the truth.


I don't see German roads littered with broken down cars or the dealers overloaded with engine replacement jobs. I have seen a lot of engines with all sorts of issues over the years including Euro engines but also plenty US and Asian engines. There are some Euro engines that really stand out and are a bear to repair but its not the norm as far as I cant tell for most daily drivers.

I agree 100% if you mean specific engine like some high output V6 and V8's used in small bodied models but then again forced induction usually in the form of turbo's has been common place for decades. IMO once these type of small displacement high output engines become more common with other manufacturers similar types of failures will probably occur.

One more point is the type of oil used, in US owners manuals they spec 5w30 but did not say A3/B4 in the quick reference section so many owners just bought 5w30 at Walmart and thought they were fine. I don't know if this is still true today.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by JAG
You proved yourself wrong already and it's written down. You also proved to be unwilling to admit it. There is nothing to argue about that! So, the criticisms will keep coming in the future.

Bring it on... No problem. I'm ready.

 

[4wd]

Careful Stevie … you might get one of these…