I've subscribed to CR on/off for about 20-25 years, and have noticed a pattern with Chevy Novas/Toyota Corollas,...Geo-Chevy Prizms/Toyota Corollas,...Dodge/Plymouth Colts/Mitsubishi Mirages. Identical cars for their respective companies, but the import name plate seemed to show a lower "Frequency of Repair"...I don't get it! I have owned many of twin cars listed above and have had good success with all of them,(tin cans that they were). I preform all the maintenance and repairs on all my cars, and I personally have had better luck with the asian imports than the true demostic cars/trucks as far as repairs go. The cars/trucks that I have had the worst repair luck with are the "real"...Worst to Best... #4)Chrysler products and then #3) Cadallac #2)Chevy/Pontiac, #1) Had two Fords and they happened to give me the least issues... Head gaskets, Trannys, Wheel Bearings, Blowing smoke at 120K plus a whole bunch of other stuff, were the typical issues with american cars. But, I liked driving the American cars better as they just have more soul! Honda and Toyota have given me the best overall results as-far-as repairs, and I've been able to take these cars to over the 300,000 mile mark easily with very few repairs along the way. I purchace American and imported vehicles depending on needs, price and style, and I preform the same maintenance on all of them. I don't baby any of them and I drive them all hard, very hard at times.
Consumer report most reliable vehicles for 06
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I'm actually a Vibe owner...but I haven't owned it long enough to make any relevant observations.
However, if you visit the www.genvibe.com forum (and www.matrixowners.com too), you'll generally find that the problems and complaints are the same. Oh, same goes for the praises too.
One thing I do notice is that Matrix owners take some strange pride in the fact that their cars aren't made at Nummi (paint issues aside). Then again, the matrixowner forum tends to have a lot of the same story: Guy buys $18k Matrix, guy puts $5-8k in mods onto Matrix, and guy still gets creamed by a bone-stock Mustang GT at any stoplight.
Me, I bought by Vibe because of heavy dealer discounts and good AWD-to-MPG utility.
BTW: No, you can't swap the front-end of a Corolla onto a Matrix/Vibe. However, as soon as that $499 Rolls-Royce front end from J.C. Whitney comes available, I'm on it.
However, if you visit the www.genvibe.com forum (and www.matrixowners.com too), you'll generally find that the problems and complaints are the same. Oh, same goes for the praises too.
One thing I do notice is that Matrix owners take some strange pride in the fact that their cars aren't made at Nummi (paint issues aside). Then again, the matrixowner forum tends to have a lot of the same story: Guy buys $18k Matrix, guy puts $5-8k in mods onto Matrix, and guy still gets creamed by a bone-stock Mustang GT at any stoplight.
Me, I bought by Vibe because of heavy dealer discounts and good AWD-to-MPG utility.
BTW: No, you can't swap the front-end of a Corolla onto a Matrix/Vibe. However, as soon as that $499 Rolls-Royce front end from J.C. Whitney comes available, I'm on it.
"Guy buys $18k Matrix, guy puts $5-8k in mods onto Matrix, and guy still gets creamed by a bone-stock Mustang GT at any stoplight. "
wow, where have I seen that before (like, any asian car forum...)
the one thing mommy's Mastercard still can't buy is brains evidently.
we rented a vibe for a few weeks awhile back and were very impressed. Only later did i realize it's lineage (we have 3 toyotas).
orange gages were a bit cheesy, but otherwise peppy, easy to handle, nice car all around.
wow, where have I seen that before (like, any asian car forum...)
the one thing mommy's Mastercard still can't buy is brains evidently.
we rented a vibe for a few weeks awhile back and were very impressed. Only later did i realize it's lineage (we have 3 toyotas).
orange gages were a bit cheesy, but otherwise peppy, easy to handle, nice car all around.
Doesn't CR do their reliability ratings based on subscriber surveys? Therefore, it seems unlikely that they could have a reporting bias.
It could be that the kinds of people who buy Pontiac Vibe's are not the kind of people who subsribe to an "old codger" mag like CR. (Of course the same could be said for the Matrix, I suppose.) Maybe they just didn't have enough replies back for the Vibe to be statistically significant and chose to leave it out of the list.
I know that in reviews in the past, CR has specifically pointed out that the Corolla/Prizm are identical designs.
It could be that the kinds of people who buy Pontiac Vibe's are not the kind of people who subsribe to an "old codger" mag like CR. (Of course the same could be said for the Matrix, I suppose.) Maybe they just didn't have enough replies back for the Vibe to be statistically significant and chose to leave it out of the list.
I know that in reviews in the past, CR has specifically pointed out that the Corolla/Prizm are identical designs.
Yes Kanling, you are correct! CR Mag. does report info based on subscriber survey and they do mention which vehicles are twins. Thats why I don't get it!...I guess that if you build a large amount of one product and paint half black and the other half white, one of the colors will have a few more problems than the other,(bad example I know!).
I don't know about prior model years, but the 2005 Matrix and Vibe both were "recommended" by CR (though not a "best choice" or whatever because they didn't come with side-curtain impact airbags standard). However, 2006 didn't see any change in design or equipment between the two vehicles, so I don't know what the problem could be outside of dealer service and the fact that both the Vibe and Matrix montly sales for September 2005 (2006 new model year & end of year close-out on 2005's) were WAY DOWN over 2004 numbers. Perhaps car buyers are ready for a full redesign (it has been four years now)...
BTW: How can you determine reliability for '06 vehicles if they've only been on the market for two or three months? That's not even one recommended service interval. Perhaps cosmetics, squeaks, rattles, etc...but mechanically, not a lot can be determined at this point. Odd...
BTW: How can you determine reliability for '06 vehicles if they've only been on the market for two or three months? That's not even one recommended service interval. Perhaps cosmetics, squeaks, rattles, etc...but mechanically, not a lot can be determined at this point. Odd...
Crack_Tan, yes, both vehicles are recomended by CR Mag. As in the past, twin vehicles,(Corolla, Nova, Prizm), have all been recomended. It's just that one of them,(usually the demestic name plate version), has a higher "Frequency of Repair" according to the surveys. Still a recomended and above average/reliable vehicle. CR Mag also uses the phrase,"Predicted Reliability". This is based on the previous model years/history.
Its the dealers silly. You wouldn't take a new BMW to be serviced at a Lexus dealer would you?
Same thing here. All of these GM/Toyota twins have been toyotas under the skin serviced by Chevy or Pontiac dealers. I doubt the dealers invest in the tools and training to serive a toyota when maybe 1 out of 50 cars that comes in is a Vibe.
Same thing here. All of these GM/Toyota twins have been toyotas under the skin serviced by Chevy or Pontiac dealers. I doubt the dealers invest in the tools and training to serive a toyota when maybe 1 out of 50 cars that comes in is a Vibe.
The Allpar website makes some good points about the likely statistical errors behind CR's surveys. But it isn't enough to explain away the broader trends that show up between domestics and Japanese cars.
I wonder how the Saabaru is doing versus its twin.
I wonder how the Saabaru is doing versus its twin.
I just don't understand how there could be enough data present to make recommendations about reliability. The oldest cars from this line are from 2002-2003...so while they're out of warranty now, they certainly should not have any major service requirements/milestones as of yet (especially considering these are "bulletproof" Corolla drivetrains). So, from what event data are these "reliability ratings" being taken? Oil changes from the dealership? Tire rotations? Squeaks and rattles?
Don't get me wrong here: I'm not fighting on the side of GM & Pontiac. I'm simply suggesting (as do others here) that too much weight is being given to brand name and owner perception. CR ought to separate the subjective data from the objective and add a separate category to handle "dealer/service experience" data.
Kanling
[ November 03, 2005, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Crack_Tan ]
Don't get me wrong here: I'm not fighting on the side of GM & Pontiac. I'm simply suggesting (as do others here) that too much weight is being given to brand name and owner perception. CR ought to separate the subjective data from the objective and add a separate category to handle "dealer/service experience" data.
Kanling
Actually, I think this is a major source of bias. The only people reporting on their vehicles (and other products) are people who subscribe to CR. Thus, no data is taken from people who don't spend x-amount of time researching products. For instance, I just used their website the other day to help choose a coffee maker. This is how I did it (and how I suspect many CR readers do): I looked at the top five or so, broke those down according to price, and bought the cheapest one. Now if CR sends me an owner survey, I'm probably far more likely now to say my experience is good since I own one of the top-5 CR picks for coffee makers. I'm sure this circular thinking applies in some regards to the reason why so many Japanese cars are rated so highly. In fact, it may be worse since people don't tend to want to complain about something they just spent $25k on.
[ November 03, 2005, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Crack_Tan ]
JHZR2
Staff member
PandaBear hit the nail on the head...
Go to a toyota dealer, and you have a significant menu of suggested PM to do. Go to a GM dealer, and there may be a photocopied sheet, usually not, usually no guidance other than to change your oil.
Too much PM never hurt anyone... Toyotas often get what some may consider "too much" but the owners reap the benefits.
IMO, too many folks think they know better, or the dealer is just tryng to rip them off. I could probably draw suggestions as to what type of folks do this... and what kinds of cars they buy... but I wont.
But I do have to wonder why some folks get a toyota and its crap, though thousands of others are great, and others get domestic cars that crap out relatively early (at least some parts), and yet others buy same and EVERYTHING lasts for hundreds of thousands...
JMH
Go to a toyota dealer, and you have a significant menu of suggested PM to do. Go to a GM dealer, and there may be a photocopied sheet, usually not, usually no guidance other than to change your oil.
Too much PM never hurt anyone... Toyotas often get what some may consider "too much" but the owners reap the benefits.
IMO, too many folks think they know better, or the dealer is just tryng to rip them off. I could probably draw suggestions as to what type of folks do this... and what kinds of cars they buy... but I wont.
But I do have to wonder why some folks get a toyota and its crap, though thousands of others are great, and others get domestic cars that crap out relatively early (at least some parts), and yet others buy same and EVERYTHING lasts for hundreds of thousands...
JMH
Take the CR "reliable" list with a grain of salt. Any car on "least reliable" list could probably be avoided without concern, though!
Ilike my Matrix, I liked the Vibe I rented in Alaska. I would have bought either one as they were right around the same price. Went for the one with the better powertrain warranty.
AS far as having more room than your Cavalier? Yes most defintely....I test drove a Corolla before the Matrix and thought it was sort of cramped (I'm not all that big, 5'11 about 185lbs)..the Matrix(and Vibe) have tons of room...feels like you are driving in a much bigger car than it is. Lots of headroom, legroom etc...
One thing I will caution to any Matrix or Vibe prospective buyers is that the engine is very buzzy....not that it is bad, just if you are expecting a nice smooth ride like the Corolla has you will be mistaken that a Matrix gives the same ride. Engine seems louder and a lot more road feel is transmitted back through the pedals and steering wheel.
Sort of like driving a go kart...I sorta like it
AS far as having more room than your Cavalier? Yes most defintely....I test drove a Corolla before the Matrix and thought it was sort of cramped (I'm not all that big, 5'11 about 185lbs)..the Matrix(and Vibe) have tons of room...feels like you are driving in a much bigger car than it is. Lots of headroom, legroom etc...
One thing I will caution to any Matrix or Vibe prospective buyers is that the engine is very buzzy....not that it is bad, just if you are expecting a nice smooth ride like the Corolla has you will be mistaken that a Matrix gives the same ride. Engine seems louder and a lot more road feel is transmitted back through the pedals and steering wheel.
Sort of like driving a go kart...I sorta like it
I don't think dealer service department training has much to do with it. One reason is that these vehicles shouldn't be requiring much more than routine maintenance which any dealership, even Jiffy Lube, could perform.
The other reason is that cars just don't differ from one another that much. Anyone who is competent to work on GM vehicles could work on a Toyota with no problem, using the service manual to fill in the minor details as needed.
The other reason is that cars just don't differ from one another that much. Anyone who is competent to work on GM vehicles could work on a Toyota with no problem, using the service manual to fill in the minor details as needed.
In my opinion, and in my personal garage reliability depends on several things including original manufacturers quality,and ongoing maintenance. If either of these items are lacking thumb extended mode of walking,or cellular intervention is likely to occur. Ok I'm going to give GM a plug here. And I admit that I am personally biased towards them having driven their products almost exclusively for 30 years or so at present. '93 Cavalier 4dr 243 thousand miles and counting,'96 Caprice (backup heavy cruiser) 184 thousand miles and counting,'04 Cavalier 4dr(my wifes car 32mpg) 43 thousand miles and counting, '04 Cavalier 2dr (my econo ride 34mpg) 23 thousand miles and counting. The '93 Cavilier is currently on loan to my stepson and his wife and is having the snot driven out of it. Their import Mitsubishi's engine blew twice with under 100k and is now headed for or has passed the crusher. Oil excepting breakin has been group III or better from many different brands and continues to be changed at 8k or less for all of my current Chevy's. I have gravitated towards Purolator filters in the past few years mostly due to readings on this forum and word of mouth. Stealerships and iffilylubes are not allowed to touch my vehicles! I do ALL of the maintenance on my vehicles. None of the Chevy's I currently own have ever left me or my wife stranded. I can't say the same for some of the Chevy's I've owned in years past as some of those cars were raced on weekends('70 Chevelle,TROPHIES!) and driven to work on week days. Some Mondays were troublesome to say the least but it was fun anyhow. I have a neighbor with a '92 Camry that smokes blue out the tailpipe every time she leaves. This has been going on for several months now. Reliable smoking? What happens if her Camry's sump runs out of oil? Ahh...no more smoking, thumb extended, cellphone on autodial... wonder if she's married? Rickey.
On the Vibe/Matrix issue. One brand might get better owners and better maintenance. One set of owners might be pickier about issues and complain more. That could be offset by other issues and it evens out. One study was based on $ per service visit...that's funny since ...nevermind.
Posted by Rickey:
. In the vast majority of cases, blue smoke is an indicator of lack of proper care. An abused import will die in the same fashion as an abused domestic. Your overall point is valid -- take care of a car, and it will take care of you. I'd add that that principle applies regardless of where the car was made.
Ummmmm, exactly the same thing that will happen to the Chevy when its sump runs out of oil:
I agree with ekpolk that an engine that blows smoke from the tail pipe is doing so because of lack of proper care(OCI)..........At one time, I had read in Consumer Reports Mag that they send out over 600,000 surveys and get returned to them about 400,000 + completed surveys. At one time, I had read that JDPowers on the other hand sends out about 75,000 surveys and only gets returned to them about 25,000 surveys. None of this information can be taken as gospil mind you, but it is a wonderful guideline to help the average customer make wise choices with their purchaces. There are many sources of information/surveys available from not only CR & JDPowers but, INTELACHOICE, Consumer Guide and many others as well. Funny thing is, is that most of the surveys almost always acheive the same results, especially with automobiles.
I think a good way to confirm these ratings is to go onto the internet sites that users/owners of these vehicles belong too and see what they are saying. I have a Lexus SC430 and no one on the Lexus site ever talks about any problems other then minor rattles, etc. I've owned Landcruisers and on those sites they talk about starter problems and cracked exhaust manifolds. Engine and drivetrain are bullet proof, with owners getting 200K+ miles with just preventative maintaince. I use to own a Dodge truck man that site, all they talked about is problems with about every part of the truck.
everything does comedown to experience my family and i have always bought american cars mostly fords, i have to say we never had any major problems with them....love them, i don't hate japanesse they are great, but i'd chose a ford small block any day over a honda v-tech, #@$%! i have a 93t-bird with well over 220k still runs good
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