"Consumer Reports ranks Toyota, Lexus most reliable, Mercedes worst"

[wag123]

lots of chevy malibus, sparks and trax i bet. Clearly CR readers are not the ones buying silverados cause I don't know hardly any silverado owners who would vote chevy down to the bottom of the list.

There is no voting being done in this survey. If you had ever received and taken the survey you would know this.

 

[TiGeo]

You STILL missed my point entirely! What I said was... "Toyota owners are Toyota's best advertising. It's a fact!" Toyota owners are Toyota's best advertising. This is a true statement.
Furthermore, you don't have any idea what you are talking about when YOU make the claim that CR's reliability survey is not based on facts and that their methodology is flawed. Do YOU have credible evidence to the contrary? No, you don't. You have never received or taken the survey. You are just a big bag of wind.

I've taken several of those surveys when I was a CR subscriber and I recall that there were many minor things that could be used to rank a vehicle's overall reliability vs. what I would consider "important" reliability ranking metrics. Further user's own "skill" w/r to vehicle ownership comes into play. It's a data and info source but not the Holy Grail of a vehicle's reliability. Once I saw this I remember lowering CR down a bit off its pedestal.

 

[edyvw]

You STILL missed my point entirely! What I said was... "Toyota owners are Toyota's best advertising. It's a fact!" Toyota owners are Toyota's best advertising. This is a true statement.
Furthermore, you don't have any idea what you are talking about when YOU make the claim that CR's reliability survey is not based on facts and that their methodology is flawed. Do YOU have credible evidence to the contrary? No, you don't. You have never received or taken the survey. You are just a big bag of wind.

Ok. Sure, word of mouth work everywhere.
Yes I do have evidence. It is in survey itself. I already explained what is the problem. Others explained too. I am afraid you don’t understand what is validity and comparative generalizability in the research. Go back and read it. There are no control variables in this “research.” This survey is of similar design as research on your neighborhood Facebook page that asks the question: how many if you think speed limit of 25mph is too high?

 

[wag123]

I've taken several of those surveys when I was a CR subscriber and I recall that there were many minor things that could be used to rank a vehicle's overall reliability vs. what I would consider "important" reliability ranking metrics. Further user's own "skill" w/r to vehicle ownership comes into play. It's a data and info source but not the Holy Grail of a vehicle's reliability. Once I saw this I remember lowering CR down a bit off its pedestal.

What are you contending? That CU's survey takers are able to deliberately affect the outcome of the survey, and that independently, enough of them are doing so to move the bar significantly one way or the other? I don't see it.
CR has been doing this survey for a VERY long time, and they have highly educated individuals on-staff that know what they are doing.

 

[John105]

Wait...aren’t you the guy that owned a Toyota Sienna and opened your tailgate into your bike rack (or something)...ruined your tailgate...then were quoted thousands to repair...decided to have some dude down the street “fix it” for $500 bucks, a ratchet and some spray paint. Thing never closed right again. Blamed to Toyota. And now you’re an expert on Toyota? Isn’t that you?

Oh, and didn’t you feel that your brakes were “squishy”...decided to replace your brake booster. And that must mean all Toyota’s suck? I remember this because you’ve repeated this stuff several times, here, and actually on Toyota forums. You are the official BMW spokesperson of the internet, and avid Toyota basher. So, you’re experience is HEAVILY FLAWED. Sorry.

None of this^^^ is normal. What might be “normal” is a Toyota owner driving their Toyota 300,000/400,000/500,000 plus, miles with minimal repair. That might be normal, because it’s actually happening. I’m 110,000 miles into my ownership of my 2016 Toyota Avalon. Repairs=0. Nothing. Not one single misfire, check engine light, rattle, squeak, oil usuals, failure. Nada. I also (beside my own ownership experience), work in the auto industry. I see cars everyday. I see the repairs, the failures. Toyota is the most reliable brand that I have ever seen. Most fun to own and drive?? Not by a long shot (although not having to fix a car is fun). They are appliances. But very reliable ones (compared to others). This is not opinion, this is fact.

I enjoy having a German, an American, and a Japanese car in our stable, but I have to admit next time maybe not the American as much as I like the vehicles....If your Avalon is anything like my LS430, you're likely to need to address 02 sensors 10 years from now

 

[John105]

Ok. Sure, word of mouth work everywhere.
Yes I do have evidence. It is in survey itself. I already explained what is the problem. Others explained too. I am afraid you don’t understand what is validity and comparative generalizability in the research. Go back and read it. There are no control variables in this “research.” This survey is of similar design as research on your neighborhood Facebook page that asks the question: how many if you think speed limit of 25mph is too high?

The way I look at it is can you imagine if CR ran clinical trials on drugs? That would be a recipe for disaster.

But I'll always point out they said, "There's nothing sporty about the new GTI." Again, that was on the 2015 model that everyone raved about. Talk about bias?

 

[edyvw]

What are you contending? That CU's survey takers are able to deliberately affect the outcome of the survey, and that independently, enough of them are doing so to move the bar significantly one way or the other? I don't see it.
CR has been doing this survey for a VERY long time, and they have highly educated individuals on-staff that know what they are doing.

They are deliberately affecting as survey is designed that way. They don’t know they are affecting it, but they do.
The biggest problem is that reliability cannot be determined based on survey. For some people some problems might be huge issue, for some might not be. They will give different answers. In the end it more expectations/satisfaction. Same goes for BMW. Is it at 3rd place for real or owners are just happy about the car? Etc.
To get real picture about reliability, you have to separate data into regions, cost per mile, same number of vehicles separated in their respective categories. Same number if vehicles in each category that are taken into consideration. Based on number of sold vehicles in their respective categories you need certain number of those vehicles taken into consideration to get confidence level of at least 95% (which is common for research like this. Medical research would be 97-99%). That is what needs to happen.
That requires HUGE amount of money, whether they had highly educated persons or not. Under that financial pressure, they designed this. That is it. This would never be considered as possible publishing material in peer reviewed publications. Probably editor of journal would send an email to the dean of school where author is coming with question: what were you thinking when hiring this person?
Other than that, this is owners perception.

 

[KrisZ]

This thread is going well I see…

 

[TiGeo]

The way I look at it is can you imagine if CR ran clinical trials on drugs? That would be a recipe for disaster.

But I'll always point out they said, "There's nothing sporty about the new GTI." Again, that was on the 2015 model that everyone raved about. Talk about bias?

This. B/c in the end, it's not "reliable" enough for them (meaning...not a Toyota) so that is why these are only one metric to look at....I enjoy driving my cars and if you can't enjoy a GTI not sure what to tell you.

 

[TiGeo]

What are you contending? That CU's survey takers are able to deliberately affect the outcome of the survey, and that independently, enough of them are doing so to move the bar significantly one way or the other? I don't see it.
CR has been doing this survey for a VERY long time, and they have highly educated individuals on-staff that know what they are doing.

No, that the survey as-designed allows owners to report reliability issues that in the end, aren't reliablitlity issues. Let's take my VW Atlas...it's a great example. The transmission makes a noise that is related to the torque converter when subjected to a particular set of conditions....those are that it doesn't downshift to second/first when coming to a stop in "D"...it hangs in third due to the heavy-eco focus of the TCU's shift mapping. So if you roll a stop or a slow down you will start at low RPM in third gear. The torque converter is noisy for a few seconds. This will be shown by many as "not reliable" when in fact, there haven't been any issues that I can see (I mod the VW Atlas Forum/FB group so I'll say I have good data to support that comment)....it's a noise, it bothers some folks. Is the VW Atlas, based on this alone, reliable or not? CR will likely say "not", I say it's a @#$#$ noise get on with your day. This is the crux of CRs methodology. Again, I like CR and it does give some great info but it's not the end-all of reliability ratings.

 

[wag123]

No, that the survey as-designed allows owners to report reliability issues that in the end, aren't reliability issues.

Agreed, however, this same thing would apply to ALL makes and models covered in the survey, Toyota included, so in the end I would think that it would even itself out.

 

[TiGeo]

This thread is going well I see…

View attachment 127509

No butthurt here....I mean I have 3 VWs and a Ford, so clearly I didn't take CR's advice/care that I didn't. I do have a Lexus in the fleet as well to get that "100% reliable 24/7/365" vibe when the VWs are all in the shop for CELs etc. b/c "geRMAN caRs aRE UnrelIABLe"..hahahaha

 

[JeffKeryk]

Some people seem like they have to get their point across by means of insult.

 

[doublebase]

I enjoy having a German, an American, and a Japanese car in our stable, but I have to admit next time maybe not the American as much as I like the vehicles....If your Avalon is anything like my LS430, you're likely to need to address 02 sensors 10 years from now

Yeah, I mean, my preference would be a German car (which I own), but for my 500 mile weekly commute, the Avalon is flawless. I once did that commute for years in a LS460. Never owned a LS430, but those things are legends!

 

[BHopkins]

Some people seem like they have to get their point across by means of insult.

Isn't it sad. I love having a conversation of differing opinions, as long as everyone can remain respectful of one another. Once it gets nasty, it takes all the fun out of it.

 

[Skippy722]

brakes that are designed to drop kids to school and maybe work up to 55mph (in the left lane). Other than that, they start vibrating on little hint of aggressive driving.

I think all minivans have brakes prone to vibrating. Had to drive our Grand Caravan for 2 weeks while my truck was getting body work done after gently booping a telephone pole, they now vibrate anytime you do more than ~25% force on them She sternly told me “It’s a minivan not a race car, be nice to my van!”

Our lift gate seems stronger though… wife tried opening it and the garage door at the same time. Creased the gate and almost ripped the door off the track, both still work perfectly!

 

[JeffKeryk]

Isn't it sad. I love having a conversation of differing opinions, as long as everyone can remain respectful of one another. Once it gets nasty, it takes all the fun out of it.

I am on this forum to learn, have a few laughs and make some new friends. The insult BS blows.

 

[John105]

This. B/c in the end, it's not "reliable" enough for them (meaning...not a Toyota) so that is why these are only one metric to look at....I enjoy driving my cars and if you can't enjoy a GTI not sure what to tell you.

Back in 2015 when I flew to Atlanta for work, go to the Emerald Aisle to get my car, a white 2015 GTI was sitting there sceaming, "choose me!!"

It was a blast for 4 days. Hmmm I was gonna say it's the only car I've driven with a DCT tranny but no...in 2015 I was invited to a Porsche event and they were all PDKs. So never driven an auto/manual since 2015. They did change gears quickly. I would say the steering of that GTI was better than the F series BMW which to me fell upon light steering until the G series....

 

[tonycd]

There is ABSOLUTELY no validity to this. You cannot make statistically analysis between brands without same number of observations. It doesn’t tell you anything when it comes to reliability. It only tells you that certain people drive certain brands more than others. But you could get that data from sales numbers too. There is a lot of bias here, and not actual data.
In world where someone’s job depends on doing surveys etc. that person would be fired the moment he/she comes out with idea like this.

No, you do NOT have to have the same number of observations between one brand and another to make valid comparisons between them. Look up "levels of signifcance."

Having "actual data" is exactly what DOES make Consumer Reports' survey important. Is it perfect? No. But it's much more valid than, say, a self-report online poll where the general public is invited to vote their opinions. That has no statistical validity because it's just a popularity-contest election. CR, at least, has its audience and surveys it about the readers' OWN cars. The PERCENTAGE of people who report problems with each car brand are the basis of their numbers, and if those numbers are large enough, the results are probably meaningful. To CR's credit, when they don't have enough numbers, you'll see in the magazine's charts that they simply don't publish a reilability result for that model; they say "Insufficient data."

Speaking of a sample size that's too small, every person in this thread who's said "Consumer Reports' survey about Brand X is all wrong because my 2016 Brand X has been perfect" is drawing trend conclusions based on a sample size of 1 vehicle.

 

[JeffKeryk]

No, you do NOT have to have the same number of observations between one brand and another to make valid comparisons between them. Look up "levels of signifcance."

Having "actual data" is exactly what DOES make Consumer Reports' survey important. Is it perfect? No. But it's much more valid than, say, a self-report online poll where the general public is invited to vote their opinions. That has no statistical validity because it's just a popularity-contest election. CR, at least, has its audience and surveys it about the readers' OWN cars. The PERCENTAGE of people who report problems with each car brand are the basis of their numbers, and if those numbers are large enough, the results are probably meaningful. To CR's credit, when they don't have enough numbers, you'll see in the magazine's charts that they simply don't publish a reilability result for that model; they say "Insufficient data."

Speaking of a sample size that's too small, every person in this thread who's said "Consumer Reports' survey about Brand X is all wrong because my 2016 Brand X has been perfect" is drawing trend conclusions based on a sample size of 1 vehicle.

I don't remember exactly, but Cadillac was rated very low by CR. They had survery results from their readers for like 2 models. Caddy makes 11 models, I believe.
CR uses the term reliability broadly rendering it meaningless.
The CR surveys are from thier subscribers, a pretty captured group. Hardly a valid sampling.

I agree with you about posts talking about thier own cars, but the CR findings should be taken with a huge grain of salt from a valid survey standpoint.