My Honda Civic calls for a filter change every other oil change...up until I bought this car I assumed the filter should be changed everytime. I guess I just figured an old filter is an old filter, but I thought using the same filter on new oil would contaminate the new oil too? Idk, what's the difference? Are there benefits to keeping the filter for the two OCI or just replace it like I have always done?
Confused about when to change filter
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dnewton3
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Honda has been advocating this for a while now on their motorcycles. Doesn't seem to have hurt them in the slightest.
Up until the media actaully get's overloaded and would force open the bypass, the more "stuff" the filter catches, the greater the efficiency of the filter. And remember, the bad stuff stays on the upstream side of the media (presuming it doesn't relieve), so leaving the filter on would not be a risk.
Up until the media actaully get's overloaded and would force open the bypass, the more "stuff" the filter catches, the greater the efficiency of the filter. And remember, the bad stuff stays on the upstream side of the media (presuming it doesn't relieve), so leaving the filter on would not be a risk.
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Oil filter every oil change. $5+/- is cheap peace of mind.
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Are there benefits to keeping the filter for the two OCI or just replace it like I have always done?
A better question is are there any liabilities to doing this.
My answer is "no", not if you fall into the confines of the OEM recommendation where mileage is so high that filter life is substantially extended when you use distance traveled as your metric of fatigue.
If you're driving a taxi, you're getting the same (probably) usage out of the filter, but "time" is the measure of choice ..where fuel would probably serve as a more defining method. You may be using 7500 miles worth of fuel in 3 months time.
Are there benefits to keeping the filter for the two OCI or just replace it like I have always done?
A better question is are there any liabilities to doing this.
My answer is "no", not if you fall into the confines of the OEM recommendation where mileage is so high that filter life is substantially extended when you use distance traveled as your metric of fatigue.
If you're driving a taxi, you're getting the same (probably) usage out of the filter, but "time" is the measure of choice ..where fuel would probably serve as a more defining method. You may be using 7500 miles worth of fuel in 3 months time.
Originally Posted By: IMH0813
My Honda Civic calls for a filter change every other oil change...up until I bought this car I assumed the filter should be changed everytime. I guess I just figured an old filter is an old filter, but I thought using the same filter on new oil would contaminate the new oil too? Idk, what's the difference? Are there benefits to keeping the filter for the two OCI or just replace it like I have always done?
I use the Amsoil EAO20 filter in my 1993 Civic. After using the same filter for 3 oil changes, the only negative (relatively) thing to report is the wear particles according to used oil analysis, increased. When a fresh filter is used for each OCI, the particle level greatly decreases. It is because of this, I elect to change the oil filter every oil change.
I am most interested in minimizing wear particle density than saving money. I don't want to go to a bypass setup.
You can see this for yourself, it is posted in the used oil analysis section under AMSOIL Signature Series 0w30,1993 Civic 3,007 miles.
My Honda Civic calls for a filter change every other oil change...up until I bought this car I assumed the filter should be changed everytime. I guess I just figured an old filter is an old filter, but I thought using the same filter on new oil would contaminate the new oil too? Idk, what's the difference? Are there benefits to keeping the filter for the two OCI or just replace it like I have always done?
I use the Amsoil EAO20 filter in my 1993 Civic. After using the same filter for 3 oil changes, the only negative (relatively) thing to report is the wear particles according to used oil analysis, increased. When a fresh filter is used for each OCI, the particle level greatly decreases. It is because of this, I elect to change the oil filter every oil change.
I am most interested in minimizing wear particle density than saving money. I don't want to go to a bypass setup.
You can see this for yourself, it is posted in the used oil analysis section under AMSOIL Signature Series 0w30,1993 Civic 3,007 miles.
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To each their own, but a decent Motorcraft or Wix filter costs 3-$5 (like RWEST said). $5 every 6 months for me isn't going to break me. If it would, I'd just stop drinking soda for a few weeks before oil change
As I said in the other thread, just change the filter every oil change. If you're wanting to save the money then just buy a 1.79 Valuecraft filter from AZ and be happy. It's cheap insurance.
Nissan used to spec a filter change every other interval on my Sentra, and the UOA came back horrible the one time I did this. I stuck with "my" recommendation to change it every OCI and never had any more bad used oil analysis.
Also, this was the engine that was supposedly a sludge monster, something I never experienced. Could it be possible that the ones experiencing such horrible sludge issues be in part caused by not changing the filter every interval? What do you think Gary?
Nissan used to spec a filter change every other interval on my Sentra, and the UOA came back horrible the one time I did this. I stuck with "my" recommendation to change it every OCI and never had any more bad used oil analysis.
Also, this was the engine that was supposedly a sludge monster, something I never experienced. Could it be possible that the ones experiencing such horrible sludge issues be in part caused by not changing the filter every interval? What do you think Gary?
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Also, this was the engine that was supposedly a sludge monster, something I never experienced. Could it be possible that the ones experiencing such horrible sludge issues be in part caused by not changing the filter every interval? What do you think Gary?
There you're dealing two issues. It's either a design problem ..or a user neglect problem. I imagine that it's a collision of both. Most traditional domestics don't have "neglect" related issues. The domestic iron is well buffered for the traditional numb consumer and their lack of competence in vehicle maintenance.
Now the design issues ..with something like the VW/AUDI sludge problem was (perhaps-my speculation) spec'ing too long a drain interval without having wide access to oils spec'd to make the trip. For all we know the dealers didn't even bother to buy them due to the limited distribution (the onset of VW 500.0+ and such)...or it could be Joe/Jane consumer going to Jiffylube for their 10k+ OCI and getting SL 5w30
On the Asian's with issues, it's probably more of a neglect thing that the designs weren't buffered for. Outside of Honda ..I don't see too many long(er) drain Asian engines.
So ..exotics (relatively) that may not be using expensive oils that are spec'd to long in service ...or not so exotics not spec'd with the right oils for the likely service
Most of your Asians shun synthetic oils
Most of your Euros require synthetic oils.
They both had instances of sludge issues.
American engines spec cheap oil and long(er) OCI's and don't seem to suffer from this issue.
Also, this was the engine that was supposedly a sludge monster, something I never experienced. Could it be possible that the ones experiencing such horrible sludge issues be in part caused by not changing the filter every interval? What do you think Gary?
There you're dealing two issues. It's either a design problem ..or a user neglect problem. I imagine that it's a collision of both. Most traditional domestics don't have "neglect" related issues. The domestic iron is well buffered for the traditional numb consumer and their lack of competence in vehicle maintenance.
Now the design issues ..with something like the VW/AUDI sludge problem was (perhaps-my speculation) spec'ing too long a drain interval without having wide access to oils spec'd to make the trip. For all we know the dealers didn't even bother to buy them due to the limited distribution (the onset of VW 500.0+ and such)...or it could be Joe/Jane consumer going to Jiffylube for their 10k+ OCI and getting SL 5w30
On the Asian's with issues, it's probably more of a neglect thing that the designs weren't buffered for. Outside of Honda ..I don't see too many long(er) drain Asian engines.
So ..exotics (relatively) that may not be using expensive oils that are spec'd to long in service ...or not so exotics not spec'd with the right oils for the likely service
Most of your Asians shun synthetic oils
Most of your Euros require synthetic oils.
They both had instances of sludge issues.
American engines spec cheap oil and long(er) OCI's and don't seem to suffer from this issue.
Your observations parallel mine.
I always thought 5,000 was a long OCI on SH/SJ oil, and 10,000 was waaay too long for a filter to be on there.
Honda is still pushing this routine to my surprise but I just don't think it's a good idea. Not so much today's oil not being up to snuff, but if they're spec-ing a OEM Fram filter to go 10,000 miles I think that maybe they're just trying to "promote" their cars as "low maintenance".
I always thought 5,000 was a long OCI on SH/SJ oil, and 10,000 was waaay too long for a filter to be on there.
Honda is still pushing this routine to my surprise but I just don't think it's a good idea. Not so much today's oil not being up to snuff, but if they're spec-ing a OEM Fram filter to go 10,000 miles I think that maybe they're just trying to "promote" their cars as "low maintenance".
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
Also, this was the engine that was supposedly a sludge monster, something I never experienced. Could it be possible that the ones experiencing such horrible sludge issues be in part caused by not changing the filter every interval? What do you think Gary?
There you're dealing two issues. It's either a design problem ..or a user neglect problem. I imagine that it's a collision of both. Most traditional domestics don't have "neglect" related issues. The domestic iron is well buffered for the traditional numb consumer and their lack of competence in vehicle maintenance.
Now the design issues ..with something like the VW/AUDI sludge problem was (perhaps-my speculation) spec'ing too long a drain interval without having wide access to oils spec'd to make the trip. For all we know the dealers didn't even bother to buy them due to the limited distribution (the onset of VW 500.0+ and such)...or it could be Joe/Jane consumer going to Jiffylube for their 10k+ OCI and getting SL 5w30
On the Asian's with issues, it's probably more of a neglect thing that the designs weren't buffered for. Outside of Honda ..I don't see too many long(er) drain Asian engines.
So ..exotics (relatively) that may not be using expensive oils that are spec'd to long in service ...or not so exotics not spec'd with the right oils for the likely service
Most of your Asians shun synthetic oils
Most of your Euros require synthetic oils.
They both had instances of sludge issues.
American engines spec cheap oil and long(er) OCI's and don't seem to suffer from this issue.
So Gary do you not recommend synthetic oil such as PP for my Civic. I have been overloaded with so much info since finding this site that I don't know what to do anymore!
Quote:
Also, this was the engine that was supposedly a sludge monster, something I never experienced. Could it be possible that the ones experiencing such horrible sludge issues be in part caused by not changing the filter every interval? What do you think Gary?
There you're dealing two issues. It's either a design problem ..or a user neglect problem. I imagine that it's a collision of both. Most traditional domestics don't have "neglect" related issues. The domestic iron is well buffered for the traditional numb consumer and their lack of competence in vehicle maintenance.
Now the design issues ..with something like the VW/AUDI sludge problem was (perhaps-my speculation) spec'ing too long a drain interval without having wide access to oils spec'd to make the trip. For all we know the dealers didn't even bother to buy them due to the limited distribution (the onset of VW 500.0+ and such)...or it could be Joe/Jane consumer going to Jiffylube for their 10k+ OCI and getting SL 5w30
On the Asian's with issues, it's probably more of a neglect thing that the designs weren't buffered for. Outside of Honda ..I don't see too many long(er) drain Asian engines.
So ..exotics (relatively) that may not be using expensive oils that are spec'd to long in service ...or not so exotics not spec'd with the right oils for the likely service
Most of your Asians shun synthetic oils
Most of your Euros require synthetic oils.
They both had instances of sludge issues.
American engines spec cheap oil and long(er) OCI's and don't seem to suffer from this issue.
So Gary do you not recommend synthetic oil such as PP for my Civic. I have been overloaded with so much info since finding this site that I don't know what to do anymore!
lots of people run synthetics and change at 5K intervals or less and dont really reap the benefit of it. PP is a good oil and lots of people have had good results with it, some have not.
It is not going to work in every application, different driving styles, distances, habits, etc come into play
if going by the OLM using dino you will be fine as well
It is not going to work in every application, different driving styles, distances, habits, etc come into play
if going by the OLM using dino you will be fine as well
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So Gary do you not recommend synthetic oil such as PP for my Civic. I have been overloaded with so much info since finding this site that I don't know what to do anymore!
Well, no. My comment was more to explain the issues that some have encountered with deposits. Honda, for the most part, has made the American transition quite well and tend to be ahead of the curve in the evolutions that confound others. They are as American as one can design from Japan, imo.
The use of synthetic oils is all about value. Get your money's worth out of them either in longevity or utility. Either your severity of service or your length of service will dictate the cost:benefit of it.
PP, up until recent price evolutions, has been a synthetic that most around here used instead of a conventional. OTOH, no one would use Valvoline, Castrol, or (certainly not) Mobil 1 (all synths) due to the costs (rebates, sales, and all that stuff excluded). That's what's given this oil such wide appeal. It's had a banging price advantage over the competition. It's not an "extended drain" oil ..at least by design. That is, it may work in extended drains ..but it's not one you would normally choose if that was your intended goal. YMMV
You may be nervous about doing the full 10k OCI. If so, you'll probably pick a synthetic.
What's your annual mileage? What's your typical daily drive (in time and mileage)? What's your typical fuel economy compared to your peak fuel economy?
So Gary do you not recommend synthetic oil such as PP for my Civic. I have been overloaded with so much info since finding this site that I don't know what to do anymore!
Well, no. My comment was more to explain the issues that some have encountered with deposits. Honda, for the most part, has made the American transition quite well and tend to be ahead of the curve in the evolutions that confound others. They are as American as one can design from Japan, imo.
The use of synthetic oils is all about value. Get your money's worth out of them either in longevity or utility. Either your severity of service or your length of service will dictate the cost:benefit of it.
PP, up until recent price evolutions, has been a synthetic that most around here used instead of a conventional. OTOH, no one would use Valvoline, Castrol, or (certainly not) Mobil 1 (all synths) due to the costs (rebates, sales, and all that stuff excluded). That's what's given this oil such wide appeal. It's had a banging price advantage over the competition. It's not an "extended drain" oil ..at least by design. That is, it may work in extended drains ..but it's not one you would normally choose if that was your intended goal. YMMV
You may be nervous about doing the full 10k OCI. If so, you'll probably pick a synthetic.
What's your annual mileage? What's your typical daily drive (in time and mileage)? What's your typical fuel economy compared to your peak fuel economy?
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
What's your annual mileage? What's your typical daily drive (in time and mileage)? What's your typical fuel economy compared to your peak fuel economy?
I would say close to 20,000 per year. I drive about 17 miles to college in the morning, probably about 75%hwy 25%city. I then go from there about 10 miles to work, mostly hilly driving and stop lights. Then from work to home. I'm looking at anywhere from 50-70 miles per day. My best fuel economy came at 42mpg but that was a straight turnpike run. I was averaging between 36-38 on Mobil 1 0w-20, now 32-35 at the most on Pennzoil Platinum 5w20.
What's your annual mileage? What's your typical daily drive (in time and mileage)? What's your typical fuel economy compared to your peak fuel economy?
I would say close to 20,000 per year. I drive about 17 miles to college in the morning, probably about 75%hwy 25%city. I then go from there about 10 miles to work, mostly hilly driving and stop lights. Then from work to home. I'm looking at anywhere from 50-70 miles per day. My best fuel economy came at 42mpg but that was a straight turnpike run. I was averaging between 36-38 on Mobil 1 0w-20, now 32-35 at the most on Pennzoil Platinum 5w20.
Many years ago, VW, Chrysler and another manufacture? did filter flow/efficiency studies. The result was that filter efficiency improves with usage (up to a point. The data from those extensive tests resulted in "change the oil filter every other oil change" Filter manufactures responded with "why leave dirty oil in your engine filter when you change oil" I'd just follow your owners manual as the manufacture probably has run enought testing to generate good data to support their recomendation. Kind of surprising that we often times think we are smarter than the engineers who have data to back up their position. Ed
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Kind of surprising that we often times think we are smarter than the engineers who have data to back up their position. Ed
Most times, I'd say that you're right. You've got to keep in mind that until the OLM came around, no one could articulate what a sensible OCI was. They were all averaged and factored for American consumers.
There are some out there that think that their service is severe since they encroach into a few of the items mentioned as severe service ..yet they may only do it 10% of the total time behind the wheel. That is, 7500/6months doesn't just turn into 3k/3m at one line drawn in the sand. It's an envelope that moves one way or the other. Most are too busy to figure it out.
Identical engines. One with OLM ..one without. OLM can go up to 13k+ (highest I recall) ..one without 7500/6months.
I'd say it's more like you need to be "engineering literate" to understand how they came up with the recommendations and how they're factored.
While some of us may be second guessing them, in many instances, they're taking a whole lot for granted in our ignorance.
Kind of surprising that we often times think we are smarter than the engineers who have data to back up their position. Ed
Most times, I'd say that you're right. You've got to keep in mind that until the OLM came around, no one could articulate what a sensible OCI was. They were all averaged and factored for American consumers.
There are some out there that think that their service is severe since they encroach into a few of the items mentioned as severe service ..yet they may only do it 10% of the total time behind the wheel. That is, 7500/6months doesn't just turn into 3k/3m at one line drawn in the sand. It's an envelope that moves one way or the other. Most are too busy to figure it out.
Identical engines. One with OLM ..one without. OLM can go up to 13k+ (highest I recall) ..one without 7500/6months.
I'd say it's more like you need to be "engineering literate" to understand how they came up with the recommendations and how they're factored.
While some of us may be second guessing them, in many instances, they're taking a whole lot for granted in our ignorance.
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Originally Posted By: IMH0813
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
What's your annual mileage? What's your typical daily drive (in time and mileage)? What's your typical fuel economy compared to your peak fuel economy?
I would say close to 20,000 per year. I drive about 17 miles to college in the morning, probably about 75%hwy 25%city. I then go from there about 10 miles to work, mostly hilly driving and stop lights. Then from work to home. I'm looking at anywhere from 50-70 miles per day. My best fuel economy came at 42mpg but that was a straight turnpike run. I was averaging between 36-38 on Mobil 1 0w-20, now 32-35 at the most on Pennzoil Platinum 5w20.
20k a year? ..piece of cake for an upper tier filter on an every other time basis (one year time limit). You could manage it with oil too ..but I'd just do 6month OCI's at whatever mileage they add up to +/- a month.
I'd recommend just (as in at least) one UOA at the end of your 10k/6month run just to see how healthy things are at that point.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
What's your annual mileage? What's your typical daily drive (in time and mileage)? What's your typical fuel economy compared to your peak fuel economy?
I would say close to 20,000 per year. I drive about 17 miles to college in the morning, probably about 75%hwy 25%city. I then go from there about 10 miles to work, mostly hilly driving and stop lights. Then from work to home. I'm looking at anywhere from 50-70 miles per day. My best fuel economy came at 42mpg but that was a straight turnpike run. I was averaging between 36-38 on Mobil 1 0w-20, now 32-35 at the most on Pennzoil Platinum 5w20.
20k a year? ..piece of cake for an upper tier filter on an every other time basis (one year time limit). You could manage it with oil too ..but I'd just do 6month OCI's at whatever mileage they add up to +/- a month.
I'd recommend just (as in at least) one UOA at the end of your 10k/6month run just to see how healthy things are at that point.
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