confused about cermets

[dmr512]

I hope my post is appropriate here (and I this is my first post, so please be gentle and redirect me if I’m off-base). I know next to nothing about cars, and I’m in a situation where I could really use some informed opinions about an apparently controversial issue of additives. I am considering using a “cermet” type product in my car after spending hours reading about it, but I’m still feeling confused on some things. My situation is that my father left me his 92 Mercedes 300SE which I’m very sentimental about. Money is very tight, and I can’t afford a major overhaul—I would probably have to just sell it instead which would break my heart. Any sound advice would be so much appreciated. Here are my basic questions:

1) I’d like to know if there is any consensus as to which cermet-type product(s) currently available in the US would be the best to try for my issues (description to follow). The more I read, the more products I run across, and apparently some have changed names and have bought other companies out and changed formulas. Is there some basis of comparison I can use to evaluate these products side by side?
2) I just had my oil and filter and spark plugs changed today, so is this a good or bad time to use such a product? I’ve read conflicting recommendations about new versus old oil.
3) Is there any chance whatsoever that such a product could hurt my car?
4) I was also reading about some other types of additives such as Restore. If I decided to try and use one of those as well as which should I use first?

Here’s what I think is relevant background info hopefully:
• 1992 Mercedes 300SE 185K miles. My car uses regular oil and premium gas.
• The engine block was re-machined about 10 years ago after the engine lost oil pressure.
• Over the past few years the idle has become rough and the gear-changing is harsh at times.
• The vacuum modulator was replaced about 5 months ago, but the gear-changing is becoming problematic again. Recently it delays shifting at low speeds like when I pull away from a stop sign, and it seems like it may be starting out in a higher gear. If I shift it out of drive into 2nd temporarily, it immediately starts behaving better. It seems to be OK at higher speeds and once I’ve been driving for a while.
• There’s no smoke, burning smells or noises of any kind, the coolant is clean and it’s not leaking oil.
• I just took it to a Mercedes shop with a good reputation and they determined that the compression was low and extremely uneven. They think that the gear changing issue may be caused by a lack of vacuum created by the engine. They said it may have something to do with the valves or the rings and possibly the timing chain.

I’m not expecting magic, but I’d like to take a chance on a less expensive option like a cermet treatment if I don’t have anything to lose but $75, when diagnostics alone would cost me into the upper hundreds already. I started researching additives because I remembered that my old mechanic mentioned that he was going to add something to my oil that would make it run smoother, but he ran out of time to do it before I picked it up. I hope you can address some of my specific questions listed. Sorry for the long post. Thank you.

 

[TurboJim]

I consider Restore a product of last resort. It does have a clear price advantage over ceramic or cermet products however.

 

[StevieC]

to BITOG. These products are really designed to squeeze more miles out of an abused engine not for what you are intending.

You need to properly diagnose and fix your problem. "Mechanic in a Can" are not viable solutions.

 

[bmwtechguy]

I would certainly not spend $75 on a cermet treatment. JMO. Do you have any idea of how often the oil was changed since the engine was overhauled? My experience on an 89 420 SEL with 200k miles was with 1.5 bottles of Auto-Rx in the engine with some Rotella 15w40 diesel/gas rated engine oil. Also put in some Amsoil PI fuel system treatment. Took it out on interstate for an "italian tune-up". I won't say how fast I went, but let's say it could have cost me. But the point is that the difference in performance afterward was amazing to me and the owner. We left the auto-rx in the engine for 3000 miles, then changed the oil again with 15w40 and ran another 3000 miles. Currently has 5W-40 Rotella T6 syn and a moly additive. This engine now very responsive and smooth. No oil consumption or leaks between yearly oil changes at 5000 miles. Engine history was regular oil changes every 3000 miles and no major repairs. Other half bottle of Auto-Rx was used in the transmission for 3000 miles, then it was flushed with new fluid. The car is still driven daily. It was his father's car and has sentimental value mainly. It is his most reliable vehicle. He also has 3 BMWs.

 

[Steve S]

Was a compression test done? Did someone check the air feul and timing to see if it is in order? Sparkplug wires cap and rotor if applicable I am not super familiar when MB has changed over to the new fancy coil on plugs etc Trans oil been checked? how oil is it is there a trans filter? That is a nice car.

 

[tomcat27]

first: cool car! second: a merc should not require two engine rebuilds in 185k... go ahead and try Restore - it's cheap enough. I have my doubts that it will really help - especially if there are mechanical issues involved.

I'm a little puzzled by the information given you by the "mechanic": apparently a compression test was done, but they could not narrow down the cause to rings or valves? why not, a leakdown test would tell, as would the simple "oil in the cylinder test during a compression test". it is also possible to (relatively) test for looseness in the timing chain - takes less than 5 mins.

vacuum can also be measured to validate the transmission theory.

It is not easy to give a comprehensive response here - too many factors involved. but I can say that: German cars are expensive to fix. and many cars that are 17 years old need a trans/engine refresh.

is this your daily driver? do you have another another daily driver that you could sell to offset the repairs? my local college has night classes in engine and transmission rebuilding... how eager are you to learn?

 

[dmr512]

Thanks for the responses so far everyone. I will reconsider my options. I would love to diagnose and fix it properly but simply can't afford to right now. I drive it very gently and less than 4000 mi/yr--luckily I work close to home. I don't have an extra car, but it's the only car I've driven that doesn't cause problems because of a neck injury, so I'm hoping that I can stave off any damage until I can afford the proper diagnosis and repair which could be a year. I'm glad to know about the other possible tests that were not performed, so I'm going to follow up with mechanic.

The oil change history is good--my dad was religious about that, and I have done a decent job keeping it up since I got it 10 years ago. The compression test revealed low and uneven compression in all but one cylinder, and spark plugs were replaced. They noted that they were brown and wet. I will look up Auto-Rx-- some of the technicalities are beyond my understanding.

Any additional comments are welcome. I'm curious now about what sort of situations a cermet product would be good for...? By the way, I'm just a girl who loves her daddy's beautiful old car and don't think I would be trying to learn repair for myself in this lifetime at least, though it sounds incredibly challenging and interesting. I'm amazed at the technical knowledge and helpfulness of people on this website! Just unrealistically hoping for a little bit of reprieve in a can I suppose. Thanks for making me feel welcome all!

 

[Trav]

It sounds like it may have stuck rings,if this is the case the last thing you want to do is add something into the mix to further stop things up.
I have had great success with a product called Kreen from Kano labs,just google Kano Labs and call them for a quart.

Put 16oz in the oil and 16 oz in the gas tank.If things improve order another qt and put 16oz in the oil two more times,then change the oil.This product will really clean the engine internally from varnish and carbon deposits that could be sticking the rings.
PM me if you trouble ordering from them.

 

[Vikas]

First thing I will do if I were in your shoes is to find good trustworthy mechanic if you are unable to do the initial diagnostics yourself. Ask him to do the compression tests (both dry and wet) and also leakdown test. Get the written results back.

You will need this mechanic to perform more work on the car. The mechanic does NOT have to be certified to work on Mercedes but he has to be honest and reasonably proficient and priced right. He also has to be ready to work with you if you were to find cheaper source of parts.

There is lot of collective knowledge here and if you are willing, you can take advantage of it.

- Vikas

P.S. I have not even changed my own oil for last 10 years once I found a good *trustworthy* mechanic who is willing to work with me. You don't have to personally wrench to fix your vehicle right.

P.P.S Cermet does NOT have good history on this forum. Don't do it.

 

[dmr512]

Thanks for the additional input. I am glad to know about an additional product to research and that I may not need a Mercedes specialist to help me with it which could reduce costs right off the top. I'm wondering if cermet products are a complete hoax or are there some legitimate automotive applications? I saw an actual certification letter from Mercedes saying it was an approved product for one of the brands, but approved probably means it does not do harm. Does placebo effect 100% account for results people supposedly get with these products?

 

[TurboJim]

Which product brands were you considering?

 

[dmr512]

The cermet-type products I'd found were FriktionTek, Ceramizer, Cermet, and several others. I kept finding more and more, possible rebranding going on maybe.

 

[TurboJim]

FriktionTek is the US brand of XADO. XADO and Cermet have been discussed on BITOG before. You may want to use the search feature to look them up.

 

[Trav]

Liqui Moly CeraTec would be the one that carries MB approvals as well as TUV.
Most of these products are nothing more than hexagonal boron nitride (AKA white graphite) which has the all the same properties as natural graphite in a 30 weight carrier oil.

While probably not dangerous to the engine any positive effects are questionable.A high quality motor oil has all the additives necessary for normal operation,some older engines designs may benefit from a little extra Moly or even the hexagonal boron nitride but generally not.

 

[demarpaint]

I was told by a mfg of hexagonal boron nitride, that their tests of the product in engine oil, showed that it ended up in the combustion chamber, collected on, and in some instances fouled spark plugs. MoS2 according to them was a better addition to engine oil.

 

[dmr512]

Thanks for the additional considerations which I will check out, and I will get the additional tests run. I’m a bit unhappy that the new shop I used didn't do them in the first place since I paid an $89 diagnostic fee. Sometimes I think being female is a true disadvantage when going into a repair shop unfortunately.

I couldn't remember which product I'd seen the Mercedes Benz certification, so I rechecked and found it again on the FriktionTek website. Since someone mentioned TUV, this time I noticed there was a copy of a TUV International Certification which was issued in April 2010. The certificate shows 4 things on it: decrease in emissions, decrease in fuel consumption, increase in engine power and increase in compression. The scanned copy looks legitimate and it’s on the website if interested. The forum posts about cermets I found when I searched BITOG were mostly older than April 2010, so that might be news for those previously interested in the discussion. It looks like not all of the posts were negative actually; a few seemed pretty positive and surprised by it.

I didn't write down the compression figures the mechanic gave me over the phone, but if I do decide to use any cermet-type product I will find out and post them here first, and them post them again after trying it out. I know it could be a complete waste of $75, but I'm really curious now.

 

[Hethaerto]

I've used CerMet Labs and Xado. CerMet Labs product worked as advertised, Xado did not.

CerMet Labs is offering a smaller one-year dose now for around $35.

It works as advertised, but I'm not sure if it will help will oil consumption. You're not the first person inquiring about cermet to lower oil consumption.

The best thing you can do is use a high quality engine cleaner like Auto Rx or Kreen to scour out the sludge and varnish, plus loosen your ring packs which will reduce oil consumption.

After your engine is nice and clean with healthy compression readings, then move on to a ceramic product. What I liked best about Cermet labs was how it balanced my engine. I really could not feel the engine operating, and I had to look at the tach to verify that the engine had actually started and was running.

 

[dmr512]

Thanks for letting me know about the cheaper, better option. I saw your previous posts about your positive experience, so I felt like I wasn't being completely foolish to ask if it might help in my situation. I appreciate you addressing my specific question about the best order in which to use the products. I wish I had a better technical understanding so that I could more fully appreciate my wonderful car than I already do. My dad fell in love with Mercedes Benz autos when he was stationed overseas, and when he brought his back no one had never seen one. I hope to keep his last one going until I can afford to fix it properly. It's got other problems, like dying sometimes when I make a hard left at low speeds, such as when pulling into a parking space. No one seems to be able to figure that one out so far--they've tried all sorts of things but I can't remember what the names are. I can live with that for now though. Thanks again.

 

[Trav]

If you read the documentation carefully the certifications for MB are for re branded motor oil and are issued by Daimler-Chrysler.The one for MAN is for gear oil.

Something is wrong with the German patent information,it is a publication only.For a pending patent it would be Patent angemeldet and for an already patented product it should be
patentrechtlich geschützt.

The U.S. patent provides no information as to the product.
All the certifications are for oil nothing for nano particle wonder fluid.
The more i read their documentation the more it smells like a bunch of Russians running a scam.

If you decide to run a Ceramic type product then i would at least use the one from Liqui Moly Germany,its cheaper and the certifications are genuine.

In any case i would really try the Kreen through the engine first,its inexpensive and may help the conditions you describe.

 

[Hethaerto]

DMR512, your pick-up tube in your fuel tank may be positioned on the left side of the tank, thus when you make a hard left the fuel moves away from the tube, and may be damaged or even the wrong part number. I would inspect the tank and pick-up tube. I had a 78 Volvo 242 GT that had the wrong pick-up tube (for a shallow tank), and would suck air intermittently below a quarter tank. Also, the fuel moving from center to right as you turn left may be opening a broken circuit in the wiring to the boost pump in the tank (if there is one).