Comma Motorsport 5w50 vs Motul Sport Ester 5w50

[n0v0s]

Hi,

I'm trying to improve my understanding. My post is to try determine how the Comma product will differ compared to the Motul. Comma is about £30 for 5L, Motul is £50. Not significant difference, and price isn't really deciding factor. But i don't want to overpay if its just marketing hype for Motul. 7.5L sump

The Motul product seems quite well documented from oil analysis'. But the Comma product is not as well documented. Both have similar VI - Suggests the Comma is atleast 100% PAO (181)? I believe the Motul is mix of PAO and ester? I think both have ZDDP of 1000ppm.

I am interested in learning what the HTHS is likely to be for the Comma product. Going by the ACEA generic threshold for a 15w40, i think it should be greater than 3.7? There is no NOACK info. But ZDDP is 1000ppm. Reasonable? (no emissions equipment on engine, no track work).

Comma Data sheet;

https://cdn.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/comma/Comma%20Motorsport%205W-50.pdf

Motul data sheet;

https://cdn.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/motul/Sport-5W-50.pdf

If someone who is better informed on these matters could help compare the oils and point in right direction to understand better, that would be great. Car is turbo diesel, 5500rpm, getting on for 180bhp/L, and 1000-1100nm. Driven hard daily. OCI approx 5k miles (max 7K).

Ideally was going for a 5w40 full PAO oil, but curious with these 5w50 offerings.
Thanks!

 

[Bailes1992]

What car are you looking for?

Comma do seem to be very keenly priced and I use their coolants but their oils lack the approvals that give me the warm fuzzy feeling inside that make me think I'm doing good by my engine.

Edit... just realised that Comma don't even mention their oil meets 1 specification. Eek.

 

[kschachn]

What car are you looking for?

Comma do seem to be very keenly priced and I use their coolants but their oils lack the approvals that give me the warm fuzzy feeling inside that make me think I'm doing good by my engine.

Edit... just realised that Comma don't even mention their oil meets 1 specification. Eek.

This right here. Run away.

Get one with verifiable licenses or approvals and forget about the base stock composition.

 

[930.engineering]

Both have similar VI - Suggests the Comma is atleast 100% PAO (181)? I believe the Motul is mix of PAO and ester?

Why does it 'suggest'? A VI of 181 means some VII content.
SAE 5W-40 is impossible without VII, as well as 100 % PAO is
impossible anyway.
I'd bet Motul is group 3, group 4 and some bit of group 5.
Perhaps Comma could be similar, maybe major group 3 and
some group 2 to compensate for group 4 (lower its too low
aniline point/solubility). That Comma is probably too cheap
to have major content of group 4 and group 5.

I am interested in learning what the HTHS is likely to be for the Comma product. Going by the ACEA generic threshold for a 15w40, i think it should be greater than 3.7?

ACEA?

I agree with both previous posts. Use what your manual calls
for approvals.
Many excellent post to find on Bitog. Read them first!
.

 

[Silver]

Guys, it's "Comma"... they're not done yet. More to come.

Look for the new "Period" oil. That'll be the finished product with approvals.

 

[n0v0s]

What car are you looking for?

Comma do seem to be very keenly priced and I use their coolants but their oils lack the approvals that give me the warm fuzzy feeling inside that make me think I'm doing good by my engine.

Edit... just realised that Comma don't even mention their oil meets 1 specification. Eek.

It's a BMW m57 3.0L diesel (same engine as used in the 335d available in North American market) with big single turbo.

UK cars call for 5w40 and LL04 spec as they come with cat+ dpf from OEM. Some use 5w30 too.

I've read a post on here about what Porsche A40 spec calls for. It seems quite intense(!). Someone mentioned VW 504+507 is maybe even more stringent?

Would it be sensible to chose oil based on meeting, for e.g. the A40 spec, rather than trying to find something that seems to be of full PAO /ester base?

I'm just concerned about ensuring there is sufficient oil film maintained on the bearings. I will do some more reading, but I was thinking to chose an oil with higher Hths and of better base stock to help achieve this under hard use.

 

[kschachn]

I'm just concerned about ensuring there is sufficient oil film maintained on the bearings. I will do some more reading, but I was thinking to chose an oil with higher Hths and of better base stock to help achieve this under hard use.

Exactly what an oil with the proper BMW approval guarantees. It has little or nothing to do with the base stock composition.

 

[n0v0s]

Why does it 'suggest'? A VI of 181 means some VII content.
SAE 5W-40 is impossible without VII, as well as 100 % PAO is
impossible anyway.
I'd bet Motul is group 3, group 4 and some bit of group 5.
Perhaps Comma could be similar, maybe major group 3 and
some group 2 to compensate for group 4 (lower its too low
aniline point/solubility). That Comma is probably too cheap
to have major content of group 4 and group 5.




ACEA?

I agree with both previous posts. Use what your manual calls
for approvals.
Many excellent post to find on Bitog. Read them first!
.

I used "suggest" because of incomplete understanding on topic.

I watched a video explaining differences in some racing oils, I think the creator himself has missinformed me on some things that's made things iffy. I'll do some more reading here!

Manual calls for LL04 and like 18,000 mile oci. I don't think it's 100% useful when I'm running engine setup so far out of what the OEM designed oil spec for.

 

[kschachn]

I watched a video explaining differences in some racing oils, I think the creator himself has missinformed me on some things that's made things iffy. I'll do some more reading here!

Manual calls for LL04 and like 18,000 mile oci. I don't think it's 100% useful when I'm running engine setup so far out of what the OEM designed oil spec for.

Really? Why is it deficient? You mentioned you weren’t tracking the car.

 

[n0v0s]

Really? Why is it deficient? You mentioned you weren’t tracking the car.

Most of the typical used condition engines seem to have very sorry looking oil pump. Scored quite badly. I understand this is inevitable but looks quite bad, debris definitely going through. It's likely this is direct result of long oci and wear particles inevitably making it through the mesh in the oil pick-up into the pump.

But also, I'm not sure how much role the low saps oil plays in contributing towards this. All the trusted BMW tuners have switched to 5w50 ester based oils on their own cars, one I discussed with suggested the BMW spec of 4.3bar (bypass) max pressure is not sufficient, especially when increasing over stock 5000rpm limit. And the increased load on the bearings requires thicker oil film to help preserve bearing life. (Stock power is like 230bhp and 400lbft, modified is over double)

I've confered with some owners who've been prudent enough to measure pressure. Seems common for idle pressure to show 0.9bar or less when spec calls for 1.3bar. Maybe this heavily contributes to the increasing number of engines spinning bearings on this fabled bulletproof engine.

Rod bearings usually look really good even on 200k mile engines. Mains can sometimes show some wear. I found some papers that discuss oil film thickness with different oil grades, and effect of rpm on this etc that im reading through. I just want to inform myself as much as possible. So I welcome input and corrections to my understanding.

I found an oil that seems to meet Porsche A40, BMW LL01, VW 502, Mb 229.5, and ACEA A3. Full SAPS 5w40. From what I read here, that would make for a very robust oil of good quality. What do you think?

 

[kschachn]

I’m beginning to understand your point here in this thread, and given that I suggest you buy the oil you note above.

I honestly don’t know why you came here, you have made up your mind and nothing anyone here says will ever influence that.

 

[n0v0s]

I’m beginning to understand your point here in this thread, and given that I suggest you buy the oil you note above.

I honestly don’t know why you came here, you have made up your mind and nothing anyone here says will ever influence that.

That last part of your message, I think it was quite a strange reply. I was quite clear in asking for direction.

I even took the recommendation to go by spec approval rather than simply trying to determine oil on its base composition and so I made alternative suggestion for consideration.

I gave reasons for why I was not confident in BMW 5w30 low saps LL04 based on hands on experience opening these engines up and having communication with a lot of owners running these engines at higher power and breaking them.

Your reply suggests you didn't even read my post.

 

[n0v0s]

Oil pump stators and rotors from running engines

 

[CleanSump]

No DPF. Consider a high HTHS HDEO.

 

[n0v0s]

No DPF. Consider a high HTHS HDEO.

Thanks for actual input. I currently use a 10w30 HDEO. It won't be anything popular in NA, but it's usually Total (this looks to be a blend) and Fuchs oils.

Data sheet for the Total attached. I use these because I have inexpensive access to them so I'm able to change out every 3k miles currently. Usually change filter every other OC.

I figured the 10w30 has slightly thicker Hths than the 5w30 equivalent. Going purely off spec approval makes it difficult to know what Hths is, seems some 40 grade oil might be not much higher Hths than other brand 30 grade etc

Hence the Petronas selection above. I figure a HDEO offers heavy additive package for piston cleanliness, oxidation, tbn etc for long oci. What else am I missing that makes the HDEO more suitable over the Petronas type oil?

 

[n0v0s]

 

[n0v0s]

Turbo from a JD tractor, vgt type. This is the culprit in question, the source of many headaches!

 

[n0v0s]

The 10w30 HDEO I use meets MB approval 228.51. I found the following specs. Hths must be atleast 3.5 so it is atleast matches min 3.5 Hths of the BMW LL04

 

[Bailes1992]

You're looking into this way too much.

LL04 is a fantastically stringent specification that BMW used in everything for a long period of time. This included their little 1.5 3 cylinder diesel engines right up to their big twin turbocharged V8's.

LL04 is based largley on the ACEA C3 specification but will include additional requirements for things like wear and to allow extended drain intervals.

In addition, LL04 maintains the same wear requirements laid out in LL01. Another highly regarded, stringent specification.

Its therefore reasonable to suggest that LL04 is 'just' LL01 but with requirements to increase the service life of emissions equipment.

If I was you, as you don't have a DPF or EGR I'd go to Costco and spend £33 on 5 litres Mobil1 0w40 FS which will be more than ample for your requirements. Alternatively, if you wanted something a little bit thicker and more stout, you could consider Mobil Delvac MX ESP 15w40.

 

[kschachn]

You're looking into this way too much.

LL04 is a fantastically stringent specification that BMW used in everything for a long period of time. This included their little 1.5 3 cylinder diesel engines right up to their big twin turbocharged V8's.

LL04 is based largley on the ACEA C3 specification but will include additional requirements for things like wear and to allow extended drain intervals.

In addition, LL04 maintains the same wear requirements laid out in LL01. Another highly regarded, stringent specification.

Its therefore reasonable to suggest that LL04 is 'just' LL01 but with requirements to increase the service life of emissions equipment.

If I was you, as you don't have a DPF or EGR I'd go to Costco and spend £33 on 5 litres Mobil1 0w40 FS which will be more than ample for your requirements. Alternatively, if you wanted something a little bit thicker and more stout, you could consider Mobil Delvac MX ESP 15w40.

Yes multiple things going on here.