Collapsed filter media revisited

[y_p_w]

There are plenty of people here running used oil analysis on engines using Champ filters. Has there been any that would indicate that there's a high incidence of filter failure that might affect engine longevity?

I'm pretty sure GM has thoroughly tested samples of the filters they buy (from Champ and others), down to running used oil analysis and cutting open the filters in their test or company car fleets. If I were them, I might even offer free oil filters and and/or oil in exchange for employees returning oil samples and used filters.

My particular opinion is that it probably doesn't really cost all that much to make a quality oil filter. I've used Champion Labs filters and will continue to do so. And yes - I've taken a hacksaw to a few, and there was nothing that would dissuade me from using them. Now Fram is a different matter.

 

[labman]

y_p_w, perhaps one of the best posts on this thread. Of course, with modern oil and engines, the full flow oil filter may not be that important. Thus, it is hard to pin down any problems with poor ones. I am just glad the ST 3950 I use is neither Ecore or clicker valve. Of course, since my truck has its own bypass, even the dreaded clicker is no problem. I also am not convinced there is anything wrong with the Ecore.

I am still waiting for some real proof $10 filters are any better.

I agree on Fram.

 

[Phoenix]

JW, Good points all around, thanks for keeping it clear, and others honest.

Filter guy, who bought Champion?

 

[labman]

Doing some more thinking on this. I am not the least bit comfortable about the idea of my oil filter having a hole in the media. And maybe some of us need to take a closer look at filters we cut apart. Some of the stuff I see here isn't that apparent. When I strech the media out to measure it, you would thing I would see holes.

On the other hand, how long has Lubeowner been using Warners? Are there people that have been taking their car there for years with one Warner after another failing? Yet the car is still able to drive back in for another oil change? Big, serious problem?

Now I am not saying he should keep using dubious quality filters. Some problems you have to fix now. After all, I swore off Frams. How many engine warranties has he had to pay off?

 

[y_p_w]

quote:

---

Originally posted by labman:
y_p_w, perhaps one of the best posts on this thread. Of course, with modern oil and engines, the full flow oil filter may not be that important. Thus, it is hard to pin down any problems with poor ones. I am just glad the Super Tech 3950 I use is neither Ecore or clicker valve. Of course, since my truck has its own bypass, even the dreaded clicker is no problem. I also am not convinced there is anything wrong with the Ecore.

---

I'm not freaked out about the Ecore either. It seems that a few early production problems might have creeped in. The thermally bonded endcaps seem like a great idea as long as it's done correctly; wouldn't the bonded area become structurally stiff? OTOH - I do oil changes for my family's cars, including a 3387A application with no bypass, and a 3614, where I've got a few Super Tech filters stocked (1 clicker and two Ecore).

What swore me off Fram was that I saw the cardboard noticeably flaking after less than 1000 miles. The materials seemed cheap and shoddy. The bypass was hard molded plastic, and it looked like it had to be perfect (it had a little bit of "flash") to form a good seal. Many of the parts didn't seem like they fit or sealed well. I've opened up GM-designed AC filters as well as Champ made filters, and if nobody told me what the price was, I would have sworn they cost a lot to make. The glue was extremely secure and the element was perfectly centered. When FG says there's only one quality to the construction of Champ filters, I believe him.

 

[ZR2RANDO]

Labman,
"I am just glad the ST 3950 I use is neither Ecore or clicker valve."

I looked in one the other day, it had a clicker valve, and its wix equivalent 51381 also has a bypass.

 

[Filter guy]

John W. Colby

I love your rant. And i'm sure there are a few other who probably feel as you do.

If only everyone in the USA cut open their filters.

But while you say it is meaningless that Champ has the lowest amount of filters returned, how can that be meaningless? What it does mean is those that DO have a problem, are more likely to have that problem with another manufacturers filter. Doesn't it? Simple as.

The facts that people don't cut open their filters and throw them away is the same for all manufacturers. Of course you want to focus on but one.

BITOG has any number of people who cut open filters. What have they found? That is the relative sample that would constitute a "poll". As they use various brands of filters. And pay various amounts for them.

--------------------------------------

Phoenix:

The Carlisle Group recently purchased Champion Labs. Previously it was owned by UIS,Inc. ( which is who owned it during the time I was there)--United Industrial Syndicate. Which was a private company, Basically one man owned it. He passed away. His daughter sold Champ and the other holdings in their "Automotive Group". Which included Airtex ( who makes water and fuel pumps) and some other automotive companies.

Champ was originally founded by three locals in Southern Illinois. At one point Andy Granitelli of STP fame owned 5% of the company but he was bought out. As were two of the other three original investors. The owner at the time wanted to retire and not let Champ be moved out of Illinois. So he found UIS and sold to them.

So far The Carlisle Group has made some major investments in Champ. A new engineering lab. The new E-core line ( which was between 10-50 millon). There is "talk" of more investment. But i'm not telling what it is...

 

[Phoenix]

FG,
lube owner has the most access and opportunity to 'poll' used filters of many labels with many variables (excepting geography and climate).
His findings represent a much larger real world sampleing than most anyone else.
He also has some idea of useage and OCI service with repeat customers.
If he starts reporting the NAPA filters failing since his switchover to them, then your theory of the problem being engine based would be supported.
If there is a drop in filter failure of the sampleing, then your theory isn't proven.

The Carlyle Group actually owns UIS who in turn owns Champ Labs.
Two interesting facts about Carlyle.
It was founded and run by Prescot Bush, and its major investors today are Middle Eastern oil ministers.

If Champ Labs make 500,000 filters daily (hard to believe) for different lables, the failures of their private label filters don't nessesarily find their way back to them just by the 2 or 3 degrees of seperation. Seeing a lower numers of returns to Champ Labs is not a reliable test of failure rate.

 

[labman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ZR2RANDO:
Labman,
"I am just glad the ST 3950 I use is neither Ecore or clicker valve."

I looked in one the other day, it had a clicker valve, and its wix equivalent 51381 also has a bypass.

---

Why should I go out of my way to spend 3-4 times as much for for a filter with a better bypass that my truck doesn't need? Besides, the ones I cut apart have a rubber gasket sealing against a circle of holes in the threaded end, and a coil spring holding it in place. Do you work for WIX or something? I thought just the Champ junk had unneeded bypasses?

 

[XS650]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Phoenix:

The Carlyle Group actually owns UIS who in turn owns Champ Labs.
Two interesting facts about Carlyle.
It was founded and run by Prescot Bush, and its major investors today are Middle Eastern oil ministers.

---

Skull and Crossbones must have pulled that one off.

Carlyle Group: Founded 1987
Prescott Bush: Died 1972

There are stong ties between Ex-President Bush and The Carlyle Group. He is a Carlyle investor, spokesman and behind the scenes advocate.

 

[ZR2RANDO]

Labman,
You just made the statement that the ST3950 was not an ecore and did not have a clicker bypass valve. The st3950 in my local walmart does have the clicker valve, I just figured that maybe you didn't cut open filters so you didn't know that...
As far as your statement-
"Why should I go out of my way to spend 3-4 times as much for for a filter with a better bypass that my truck doesn't need? " goes...
You don't have to spend much at all for a good filter-
You can even get one that actually lists for your truck
I don't work for Wix, they just have an easy-to-use x-ref conversion page is all.
You are correct about the Champ junk having unneeded bypasses, but if you like them so much, use them anyway, it's your truck.

 

[Phoenix]

quote:

---

Originally posted by XS650:
Skull and Crossbones must have pulled that one off.

There are stong ties between Ex-President Bush and The Carlyle Group. He is a Carlyle investor, spokesman and behind the scenes advocate.

---

I believe its Skull and Bones.


Whoops! You are correct sir!
My bad, I got the patriarch and the fathers shady dealings mixed up. Even dubya was on the board before he was governer.

 

[pscholte]

Jackson, MS--While covering the annual Convention of Auto Oil Filter Manufacturers, over 20 radio and TV announcers fainted from the extreme heat and humidity plaguing the deep south. Medical officials said it was the worst case of collapsed filter media they had ever seen.

 

[Larry the Cable Guy]

That's a winner!! Awesome!

Steve

 

[kctom]

Filter Guy,

It's so refreshing to see someone on this board that can reason. In the past I tried to do that, but I just don't have the patience to argue with stupid people.

Your are absolutely correct about the mob mentality here. I don't believe that there is a technique for the average person to effectively evaluate an oil filter. We just do not have the tools to measure the filtering effectiveness of an oil filter. As a result, everyone jumps on the Let's cut one open and see what's in there, bandwagon. That doesn't work. Or one guy has one filter that he doesn't think works right, and everone is pointing at that as an example of why so and so's filters are sub-par.


I have always used Fram's. They protect my car until I am ready to get rid of it. I have never had an oil related engine failure. I keep my car 10+ years. They usually have 150,000+ miles on them. The engines are always the best thing left in the car. I have seen a couple of studies that point to Fram being a good filter. Maybe there is a better oil filter out there, but I am not going to waste my time looking for it. Nor am I recommending that everyone use Fram.

If you are going to criticize someones work you better have something better than speculation or weak antidotal evidence.

Tom (The Fram Guy)

 

[Filter guy]

kctom..

I think it aggravates some that I "stick up" for Fram.

To many people want dirt on companies. I posted a long time ago that all i would do is give some basic answers on filter related issues from a manufacturers point of view.

Fram, Baldwin, Donaldson all at one time or another were my accounts. I've met others from Wix, AC Delco, Fleetguard, etc at various trade shows or when i was on the Filter Manufacturers Council.

When I was in sales or did training for Champ, I was taught and I taught..that Champ people do not cut and compare filters or "pick" on the competition. We/I sold on the strengths of how Champ built their product and what the differentiation between product was.

As I've mentioned before NO filter company builds a product that does not meet OEM specs ( that I know of). What seperates each "brand" or private label is what they want to accomplish with regards to filter life and efficiency versus competition. And in Champs case various other factors.

Thanx for your opinion. It is one that a few others have shared via pm as well.

It's up to each individual to decide for themselves which filter they want and why they think it is best for their needs.

 

[Phoenix]

Tom (The Fram Guy),
Didn't you just post an anecdotal love letter about orange cans?

 

[Filter guy]

Phoenix..

if you want to get into the politics of filter companies I'll give you the skinny on how which employees voted for President during the last election..

Wix, Purolator, Baldwin ( Clarcor), Fleetguard are in predominatly Red States and would have voted for Bush.

Champ voted for Bush or Republican for about every election since I went to work there. Even though Illinois is a blue state, Champ is not Chicago which dominates how the state goes. The counties around where Champ is have been strong Republican for decades..

Fram, AC Delco would have voted for Kerry. They're in Blue States.

Donaldson would be a swing company. They are in a state that barely went for Kerry but they also have some facilities in Red States/counties, so over all they probably shaded towards Bush.

So the fact that The Carlisle Group has major Republican ( and Democrat if you dig far enough) connections really didn't bother people at Champ to much..

 

[Phoenix]

FG, not a political interest, just an interest who owns what and who benefits from buying champion products, like the Saudi royal famoly, and other rich Saudi families who are major investors in Carlyle.

 

[Gary Allan]

Phoenix,

We keep this type of stuff out of BITOG. It needlessly clogs up the exchange of technical information. We try and keep politics out of it. If you have a protest about ownership of a given company, please find a message board that addresses those topics. Although we may have opinions one way or the other, this type of banter does nothing to add to the use of this board. It has, in fact, proven to detract from its purpose.

This falls along the internet hoax type stuff "Don't buy gas from these vendors unless you like funding terrorism". I would appreciate you taking that type of post to other boards.