Collapsed filter media revisited

[ZR2RANDO]

“Otherwise most treat filtration symptomatically. They respond to start up noise ...etc. While this is all fun and whatnot ..it really doesn't tell you whether the filter is doing a good job or not and whether it is reducing or increasing any wear in any apparent defect.”

Gary, how can you say that? So according to you startup noises that routinely occur with one brand of filter and then go away when you use any other brand of filter, is NOT a filter problem? Those startup noises obviously indicate insufficient oil flow/pressure. Insufficient oil flow/pressure contributes to increased wear. Is it going to kill the engine immediately? Of course not. Is the engine going to have reduced compression in years to come, maybe be a smoker later on in life…possibly.
Those startup noises that occur with Fram, and then don’t occur with other brands do indicate to me that the Frams are not doing a good job.
That isn’t just “fun and whatnot”, that really does tell me whether the filter is doing a good job or not. There is just no reason to continue using a crap filter once you find out it is a crap filter. It may be difficult to exactly measure how much of a crap filter it actually is…I could care less…I’ll be using something else.
Those filter mfgrs know full well how to make a better filter if they want to…it’s just a matter of how many they can sell, and how much profit they can make. Personally, I am more concerned with my trucks than with their profit margin.

We don’t learn things on here by always being told that the mfgr’s all make perfect products that meet some unmeasurable/unidentified spec…(which is just marketing). If that were true there would be no need for multiple mfgrs. The benefit of BITOG has been the sharing of actual performance information and product comparisons.
I hope that benefit continues.
It seems that some of those that had actual useable info and insights have either been alienated or are just plain gone.

 

[XS650]

Gary, It's difficult to tie startup clatter from a poor ADBV to engine life and I won't try to convince you since you aren't maintaining any of my vehicles.

What poor ADBVs and chitty looking construction with undersized element that distort do tell you it that the company is cutting corners in some obvious areas.

If you found out that your doctor beat his wife, was a drug addict and had hepetitus, it wouldn't prove that he was going to give you medical care that would shorten your life, but I think you would find another doctor....or would you. You would have no proof that any of those were going to shorten your life.

 

[Gary Allan]

No, I wouldn't ..but my choice would not be based on my assumption of appropriate medical care either. It wouldn't get that far.

No, I wouldn't use a filter that produced start up clatter. No, I wouldn't use a filter that had lame contruction and had a proven record of failure in service (of any substance). My ONLY point is that we may be debating a tempest in a teacup.

GM will not void your warranty for using a Fram ..or a Warner ..or any other filter. Why? They don't care? ...or it doesn't matter that much? (the point being made on the "suggestive" reason for this)


That is, I'll use a filter that will not fail in my usage. If any filter shows signs of failure in my usage, it will be dicarded from my future purchases.


THIS IS NOT AN ENDORSEMENT FOR THE USE OF LAME FILTERS

 

[ZR2RANDO]

Gary,
To answer this:
So according to you startup noises that routinely occur with one brand of filter and then go away when you use any other brand of filter, is NOT a filter problem?
Where did I say that? I believe I said that it doesn't necessarily mean the filter is not adaquately doing its intended purpose.

Here’s what you said…
“Otherwise most treat filtration symptomatically. They respond to start up noise ...etc. While this is all fun and whatnot ..it really doesn't tell you whether the filter is doing a good job or not and whether it is reducing or increasing any wear in any apparent defect.”

And here’s what I had said just previous to that…
”Exactly, I used Frams regularly once upon a time, that noise was a regular irritant and I tried everything I could to make it go away. I had no idea back then that the filter could cause that noise- I had read that Frams were the best so of course I believed they were. Only when I read that Frams caused that noise routinely did I even think about changing. I bought a new filter, (ACDelco at that time) changed the filter only- not the oil, and the noise never re-occurred. Since that time I have read repeatedly (not just here mind you ) that this is a known issue with Fram filters..”

Sorry if I misunderstood your inference to my previous post………

The Fram startup noise I have repeatedly talked about was NOT caused by just a draining adbv. A filter that drains out due to a non-functional adbv will potentially have a couple moments of noise as the filters fills back up, that is all. I don’t even hear any startup noise in my trucks now when I do my oil changes..and the oil system was completely drained when I do that. The startup noise that I have spoken of, and read about, and witnessed, and done away with by using other filter brands, is the valvetrain rattle that persists until the oil warms up, and thins enough to flow sufficiently through that filter. I’m talking about several minutes, not just a couple seconds.
Ok, so you think that what I am describing does not actually cause any measurable long term damage to the vehicle, I disagree. I won’t use the Frams on my trucks. I’m not risking it just to prove the point. If I don’t like the way something looks or performs, I won’t use it, I’m just that way. You however seem a little more adventurous so feel free. I’m sure you’ll let us know if you ever do have any lubrication (filter) related issues with your engines.
Some things are difficult to prove in any quantitative fashion, I don’t always see the need to know the answer to the nth degree. The only way to exactly measure engine wear is to accurately measure components before and after use, and I’m not going to that trouble. I just try to minimize general wear and tear using basic common sense.

Motorguy222- I agree, I call it ethics, and some companies/people have better ethics than others.

XS650- good points, and another good analogy…kinda adds in to the smoking and cancer thing from before…

and as far as this statement..

GM will not void your warranty for using a Fram ..or a Warner ..or any other filter. Why? They don't care? ...or it doesn't matter that much? (the point being made on the "suggestive" reason for this)

If you are in the dealer for a warranty repair of a lubrication related problem and you are using a non OEM filter….the FIRST thing they will do is blame that filter and show you where the phone is. While under warranty the only way to make sure they have no way out is to not give them a way out. After warranty it is yours anyway, use whatever you want.
They know that statistically most problems caused by filters would only show up later on in life, not usually during warranty.

[ June 15, 2005, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: ZR2RANDO ]

 

[Propflux01]

"Well, in the case of a lame ADBV it only shows that it didn't hold. While this is a defect in that part of the filter, I haven't seen anyone show an increased wear UOA for using one"

Even so, if that is the case, we wouldnt need oil in an engine at all, after all, alittle 'banging around' isn't producing any 'measureable' wear....

just becasue a UOA does not seem to show it does not mean it is not happening. Goes back to the long term effect, how many extra miles would it HAVE gone if it was not banging around? Sorry, but the way I see it, if it is banging around, it is metal to metal contact. that equates to wear. Pure and Simple. Do you deny this?

 

[y_p_w]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tim H.:
"Well, in the case of a lame ADBV it only shows that it didn't hold. While this is a defect in that part of the filter, I haven't seen anyone show an increased wear UOA for using one"

Even so, if that is the case, we wouldnt need oil in an engine at all, after all, alittle 'banging around' isn't producing any 'measureable' wear....

just becasue a UOA does not seem to show it does not mean it is not happening. Goes back to the long term effect, how many extra miles would it HAVE gone if it was not banging around? Sorry, but the way I see it, if it is banging around, it is metal to metal contact. that equates to wear. Pure and Simple. Do you deny this?

---

While the sound does cause some car owners to undergo a massive freak out, it may simply be a perception problem. I suppose you wouldn't want long-term oil starvation under load. However - assorted antiwear additives should have deposited a nice layer of protective film with use, which should be adequate to protect for a cold startup. If you're doing a lot of cold startups, then the depletion of these additives may be an issue.

I recall the FTC case against Slick 50 included claims that antiwear additives in motor oil already provided acceptable protection during cold starts. The jist was that Slick 50's claims that motor oil itself didn't provide adequate startup protection were false.

 

[ZR2RANDO]

YPW,
I’d agree with what you said to a certain degree..
I’m one of those people with a perception problem I guess. If I can do something as simple as switch filter brands to eliminate that noise, I’ll do it.
I did it a few years ago.
Those EP or barrier additives may be coming into play at that cold start time, I’m sure we all hope they work, but I’d still rather not hear that noise if it is as simple as changing filter brands.

 

[y_p_w]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ZR2RANDO:
YPW,
I’d agree with what you said to a certain degree..
I’m one of those people with a perception problem I guess. If I can do something as simple as switch filter brands to eliminate that noise, I’ll do it.
I did it a few years ago.
Those EP or barrier additives may be coming into play at that cold start time, I’m sure we all hope they work, but I’d still rather not hear that noise if it is as simple as changing filter brands.

---

I call that the "warm and fuzzy feeling". There are certain things that don't give me the "warm and fuzzy feeling", and I avoid them. Fram filters don't do it for me either. It's my opinion that regardless of cost, the design and QC of Fram filters is substandard compared to Champ. Just my opinion.

 

[ZR2RANDO]

Technically, the Champs don’t make me feel much “warmer and fuzzier”.
Wixes and Purolators make me feel “toastier and just plain shaggier!!!”

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

---

The startup noise that I have spoken of, and read about, and witnessed, and done away with by using other filter brands, is the valvetrain rattle that persists until the oil warms up, and thins enough to flow sufficiently through that filter. I’m talking about several minutes, not just a couple seconds.
Ok, so you think that what I am describing does not actually cause any measurable long term damage to the vehicle, I disagree.

---

Under that description ....I won't argue with your disposition. But (and this will naturally force some of you to assume that I'm defending the cheap oil filter - I assure you, I'm not) ...this noise should have nothing to do with an oil filter. The choice of oil filter changes it ..but it's a condition that shouldn't exist with ANY oil filter. This is a function of some lame component in your oil pump.

 

[ZR2RANDO]

Gary,
That’s the problem with the Frams….they don’t have enough media to do the job.
The adbv valves don’t adb very well.
The media area is minimal, (low flowrate per unit area and not enough media area ) and is just not sufficient to handle enough flow when the oil is cold/cool/thick…
The bypass valve only opens when the stated psid is met, so the flow/pressure has already been reduced.

That is the problem with Frams….they are crap filters

You’re right, it’s a condition that SHOULDN’T exist with any oil filter. But it DOES exist with the Frams.

MY oil pump did not change, I am still using it today..have been since 1989 in that particular case….don’t go blaming my pump…
The thing that has changed is that I no longer use Frams.

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, I'll agree that Frams are crapy filters ...and leave it at that.

 

[Winston]

quote:

---

Well, I'll agree that Frams are crapy filters ...and leave it at that.

---

Wow, that came out of the blue.

 

[Gary Allan]

Not really, Winston. I just didn't need to get dragged off on a sub-topic that would merely generate more "stuff". It was much easier to just say ....that's enough for me.

 

[Propflux01]

quote:

---

Originally posted by y_p_w:
However - assorted antiwear additives should have deposited a nice layer of protective film with use, which should be adequate to protect for a cold startup.

---

True, however, I should not have to depend on those additives to cover up a filter with faulty ADBV. Those deposited additives are there for last defense protection. I want them there if the unthinkable happens, not all worn off from a faulty filter.

 

[ZR2RANDO]

TimH- 100% there buddy…

Gary- guess that pretty much settles the Fram quality issues. Sorry, I didn’t consider it getting dragged off on a sub-topic..I thought we were actually discussing crap( Fram ) filters.
Wanna talk about cheap Champs now?

This is a topic about crap filters…..

 

[Filter guy]

Rando:

Once in awhile it would be nice if you took direct aim at answering questions I pose to you. Instead of continued postulating. I don't care of you "respect" me or not. But dodging the questions isn't on regardless. I answer yours, whether you like the answer or not, whether you agree or not.

I have said before I would not use Fram, either. i have my reasons.

But I won't disparage all those who use Fram and never have a problem.


However, if you reread what I actually asked of you, and i'll do it again..I didn't know what type of truck(s) you drive. You had a problem with Fram. Fair enough. Personal experience.

My question is, if 1,000 owners of your model truck with the same engine used Fram, you seem to indicate that all of them would experience the same problem. My question to you is, what if they don't? What if 5% do, or 10%, or 20%..you never clarified how many others have the same problem you do with the same engine model just because they use Fram?

So if a minority of owners have a problem, how does that constitute a "manufacturers" problem? How can they, or the engine company which sets the specs, know you had a problem if you never tell them #1. You want to lay blame but how can Fram ever know they had a "situation" with your truck?

What if 995 don't have a problem but 5 do? How, as the manufacturer, would you diagnose the situation? What would you do, as the manufacturer, if your filter meets specs but a minority % of owners have a problem?

As with the Cummins issue, there was a service bulletin sent out saying don't use Fram ( Which Fram has since corrected their construction and the old bulletin is now moot). Was there one sent out on your model engine? And if not, why not? Could it be that the "reported" problems never reached the threshold for an OEM to determine that the "cause" was X and the fix is just don't use X.

So if the OEM manufacturer of your engine never recorded a consistent problem with the use of Fram filters on that model engine..how can you expect Fram to react to a "design change" is necessary to solve the problem?

 

[Propflux01]

I think I can give a secondary answer, even though I think I covered some of it in earlier postings:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Filter guy:

So if a minority of owners have a problem, how does that constitute a "manufacturers" problem? How can they, or the engine company which sets the specs, know you had a problem if you never tell them #1. You want to lay blame but how can Fram ever know they had a "situation" with your truck?

---

It falls under most every manufactures economic reasoning. If only a minority have problems, a company will tend to, for the most part, just blow them off, maybe send them another filter. But mostly, ignore it, as that minority isn't going to damage sales, and the 'majority' are not complaining. As long as they keep the numbers down, and make sure that no more 'bad' ones get through.
One reason most people never tell a filter company that they got a bad filter is that 1. it's only $3.00, not worth my effort to have to ship it and such. 2. they probably won't give a rats arse anyhow. 3. People are not informed enough what to do if a filter fails. 4. Ordinary average people (not us Bitog'ers, we are a different breed) probably do not even know when a filter has failed, or dont put that startup noise + crappy filter = possible filter brand problem together.

quote:

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Originally posted by Filter guy:


What if 995 don't have a problem but 5 do? How, as the manufacturer, would you diagnose the situation? What would you do, as the manufacturer, if your filter meets specs but a minority % of owners have a problem?

---

As most all manufacturers do: Ignore it, and sponser a crapload of NASCAR drivers so that Joe Race Fan will see it, buy it, and tell thier friends they saw it on Saturdays races, so if it's good enough for NASCAR, it's good enough for my '93 F-150.....Sound like a familiar brand?

 

[ZR2RANDO]

Good try Filter Guy,
You are not worth responding to.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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Gary- guess that pretty much settles the Fram quality issues. Sorry, I didn’t consider it getting dragged off on a sub-topic..I thought we were actually discussing crap( Fram ) filters.
Wanna talk about cheap Champs now?

---

(sigh) As you wish.....

Okay, pal ..in your case you've got a lame oil pump. You don't have the reserve in relief to even handle overcoming the filter's bypass setting before your oil pump is raising the white flag. Even if the Fram was totally plugged ...you shouldn't see any valve train noise. What's the bypass on a Fram? 8 lbs? So a fitler restriction of 7 sends your oil pump into reduced flow. Sorry ...if you have a PureOne it can reach that psid with normal loading ...what would you say then???

Now do see the sub (off) topic? It has nothing to do with the lameness of the Fram (which is undisputed) ..but rather why you are experiencing noise at all.

"ding" ...your turn

or would you have rather left it where I did??