My wife and I just purchased a 2300 sq ft home 40 miles south of Cleveland, OH. The home is heated by natural gas and Inwas considering adding on a coal stoker (anthracite) to help supplement the heating requirements. With the current low prices of natural gas, I'm not sure I would save any money which is the entire point of this exercise. Thoughts?
Coal vs Natural Gas
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Don't know if you ever heated w/coal before, but it's a mess. It burns hot as Hades, though.
I wouldn't do it. If you find the heating costs high, there are easier ways to bring it down such as upgrading the furnace (if old) to a modern energy efficient version with variable fans, etc. Improving the air sealing and insulation in the house will make the house more comfortable all year round.
If you don't know how to prioritize, you can get an energy audit done on the house to find out what the HERS rating is as a starting point. A part of the audit identifies the weak aspects of the house and does a simple breakeven calculation for each upgrade so that you can compare. I recommend that you get this done by an independent and reputable company. The ones that are associated with HVAC companies will almost always tell you to replace the HVAC. It is one of the most common issues and a big savings, but you will feel happier in the long run paying for the independent advice.
If you don't know how to prioritize, you can get an energy audit done on the house to find out what the HERS rating is as a starting point. A part of the audit identifies the weak aspects of the house and does a simple breakeven calculation for each upgrade so that you can compare. I recommend that you get this done by an independent and reputable company. The ones that are associated with HVAC companies will almost always tell you to replace the HVAC. It is one of the most common issues and a big savings, but you will feel happier in the long run paying for the independent advice.
We have a power station next door, it's here because it's close to the coal. The price of coal is at an all time low - and it's still cheaper to run it on gas.
Coal is not that much fun, I did it for a few years in the 1980s.
If you mess up the fire or let it go too long, it takes many hours to get it back to nice and red hot. If you loose power you have a hundred lbs of hot coal and no where for the heat to go. Mine was a boiler.
If you mess up the fire or let it go too long, it takes many hours to get it back to nice and red hot. If you loose power you have a hundred lbs of hot coal and no where for the heat to go. Mine was a boiler.
Coal? Waste of time and money. I have lived in NE Ohio for over 50 years. Gas is the way to go. Spend your $$ on a 95%+ efficient furnace and insulation and maybe new Andersen Low E windows and doors. A 95%+ efficient gas water heater will also save you some serious $$.
BTW, start shopping for a snow blower NOW. You get a better deal in Spring.
Here is a good water heater http://www.bradfordwhite.com/products/high-efficiency-0
BTW, start shopping for a snow blower NOW. You get a better deal in Spring.
Here is a good water heater http://www.bradfordwhite.com/products/high-efficiency-0
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Originally Posted By: Doog
Here is the gas water heater I have.
http://www.pexsupply.com/Bradford-White-...-Heater-Nat-Gas
$1600 for a water tank with a 6 year warranty
How much is the cost of electricity in your area?
You can pickup an electric tank for under $300.
Here is the gas water heater I have.
http://www.pexsupply.com/Bradford-White-...-Heater-Nat-Gas
$1600 for a water tank with a 6 year warranty
How much is the cost of electricity in your area?
You can pickup an electric tank for under $300.
Considering your distance from the anthracite region, it is very likely that natural gas will be more economical.
With that said, many of the other comments about burning coal stem from myths, or someone's experience with bituminous coal. Anthracite burns very clean, and when burned in a decent appliance is very easy to manage. I have burned anthracite in several hand fed stoves, and it stands alone as a fuel that you can store for many years, and have available in the event of a power outage or cold snap. A small hand fed stove like a Coal Chubby or Crane 44 might be a great way for you to get that steady radiant heat at a low up-front cost.
By the way, I heat a large 100 year old farm house on the Canadian border with an EFM stoker boiler...this winter I saved about $4,000 compared to fuel oil costs.
With that said, many of the other comments about burning coal stem from myths, or someone's experience with bituminous coal. Anthracite burns very clean, and when burned in a decent appliance is very easy to manage. I have burned anthracite in several hand fed stoves, and it stands alone as a fuel that you can store for many years, and have available in the event of a power outage or cold snap. A small hand fed stove like a Coal Chubby or Crane 44 might be a great way for you to get that steady radiant heat at a low up-front cost.
By the way, I heat a large 100 year old farm house on the Canadian border with an EFM stoker boiler...this winter I saved about $4,000 compared to fuel oil costs.
If your moving out the country and are getting a chainsaw anyways, consider a wood stove. Wood is always free for removing it and a wood stove is always handy for cooking and heating during an extended power outage as well.
JHZR2
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My parents built a mountain home in the early 80s and installed an oil and coal stoker dual fuel boiler. It works great and has given excellent service over the years.
Oil is used for hot water duties, when away and when warmer out, coal is used in the cold weather when it can be attended to. Coal is SUBSTANTIALLY cheaper to run, but of course it needs to be attended to (a few minutes a day really is all it takes, so long as you keep the fire going).
The challenge with coal is that you need to set your temperatures higher so that it operates more to keep the fire burning. If it burns out, then the next call for heat will advance coal and of course it wont burn. It can be recovered, but youll have to scoop the good coal out from the ash.
But again, the cost of operating on coal is minimal. You can easily store many tons of it in a corner of the basement, and so long as you can pull a bucket of ash out now and again, it is really a great way to save some money.
Of course most folks are lazy or dont care to do such things. It is what it is. And the air is probably better off for it than millions of unscrubbed coal stokers (my last trip to Germany took us through western Poland and the coal burning odor was very apparent). Still it is an economical way to operate and it has its benefits for some applications.
Oil is used for hot water duties, when away and when warmer out, coal is used in the cold weather when it can be attended to. Coal is SUBSTANTIALLY cheaper to run, but of course it needs to be attended to (a few minutes a day really is all it takes, so long as you keep the fire going).
The challenge with coal is that you need to set your temperatures higher so that it operates more to keep the fire burning. If it burns out, then the next call for heat will advance coal and of course it wont burn. It can be recovered, but youll have to scoop the good coal out from the ash.
But again, the cost of operating on coal is minimal. You can easily store many tons of it in a corner of the basement, and so long as you can pull a bucket of ash out now and again, it is really a great way to save some money.
Of course most folks are lazy or dont care to do such things. It is what it is. And the air is probably better off for it than millions of unscrubbed coal stokers (my last trip to Germany took us through western Poland and the coal burning odor was very apparent). Still it is an economical way to operate and it has its benefits for some applications.
I've never messed with coal, but have burned plenty of wood, (especially when we lived in Indiana). I could always get wood for free and sometimes didn't even have to cut it up. Most tree trimming companies have more than they can handle and will be happy to supply you with an ample amount of wood, most of which will be cut in bolts, (you might have to do a little shortening and for sure, some splitting as some logs are huge). The only downside is you take what they have, pine, spruce, elm, (elm is a real bugger to split so I just cut it up into chunks with my chainsaw).
There are downsides to wood - time, transportation and the mess of a wood pile. But nothing beats a wood fire on a cold night for a little snuggle time and like the old saying goes, "cut your own wood and it heats you twice."
There are downsides to wood - time, transportation and the mess of a wood pile. But nothing beats a wood fire on a cold night for a little snuggle time and like the old saying goes, "cut your own wood and it heats you twice."
Originally Posted By: expat
Originally Posted By: Doog
Here is the gas water heater I have.
http://www.pexsupply.com/Bradford-White-...-Heater-Nat-Gas
$1600 for a water tank with a 6 year warranty
How much is the cost of electricity in your area?
You can pickup an electric tank for under $300.
You will spend an extra $400 annually for electricity over gas for that tank. With the water here you will get 10 years out of either tank as long as you drain the sediment once annually. So you are talking $4000 more for electric. BTW, I have that model which is now 10 years old and going strong. But I do maintain it annually which is key. My savings averaged over 10 years have been about $4300 over a similar 75 gal electric tank I have at another home. I paid $1200 for the gas one 10 years ago. So I am over $3000 ahead of electric.
BTW, I said the same thing and my plumber convinced me to get a Bradford White because of the savings. He was right. That is also a 75 gallon tank.
Originally Posted By: Doog
Here is the gas water heater I have.
http://www.pexsupply.com/Bradford-White-...-Heater-Nat-Gas
$1600 for a water tank with a 6 year warranty
How much is the cost of electricity in your area?
You can pickup an electric tank for under $300.
You will spend an extra $400 annually for electricity over gas for that tank. With the water here you will get 10 years out of either tank as long as you drain the sediment once annually. So you are talking $4000 more for electric. BTW, I have that model which is now 10 years old and going strong. But I do maintain it annually which is key. My savings averaged over 10 years have been about $4300 over a similar 75 gal electric tank I have at another home. I paid $1200 for the gas one 10 years ago. So I am over $3000 ahead of electric.
BTW, I said the same thing and my plumber convinced me to get a Bradford White because of the savings. He was right. That is also a 75 gallon tank.
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