It should be mentioned that all of the underpowered vans that you mentioned were produced during the era of the national 55 mph speed limit. The current speed limits of 75 mph (and even 80 mph) are an entirely different matter. With the current speed limits, being able to keep up isn't a luxury, it is a necessity, from a safety standpoint. The VW Microbus that I once owned wouldn't even go 60 mph downhill with the wind at it's back. This would be unacceptable on today's highways, and dangerous. The 2011-2012 4-cylinder Sienna would go 75 mph, but with a load of passengers and/or cargo, 75 mph could not be maintained with pedal to the metal on a relatively mild hill or into a strong headwind. Pulling into a faster left lane to pass slower traffic in the right lane was a frightening experience and had to be planned in advance.Wow, thanks, I didn't realize the Sienna was that bad with the 2.7.
I read this article on TTAC a few years ago, and recently reread it:
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/04/review-toyota-sienna-le-2-7/
I take it with a grain of salt as that writer tended to be quite snarky, and some of the readers' comments mitigated some of the article's venom.
We have owned three minivans that I'm sure the media would have condemned for lack of power. All served us well.
1990 Mazda MPV 2.6 l inline-4 with 121 HP/149 lb-ft. This was a great van to drive, with the same 5-speed manual transmission as was used in the RX-7. The power was completely adequate, even with the van loaded right up. This was totaled in an accident at 326K km, but still ran very well.
1997 Mazda MPV 3.0 l V6 with 155 HP/169 lb-ft. Another winner - this one had the 4-speed Jatco automatic, as the MT was dropped after the '91 MY. Even with the automatic, it had excellent mid-range power - there was a variable intake manifold system that gave a VTEC-like bump at 3600 RPM. More than adequate! This was vandalized and so scrapped at 344K km. The drivetrain was still near perfect.
1995 Mazda Bongo 2.0 l. OK, this one definitely could have used help. A (slightly) sub-2 litre SOHC engine pulling around a 9-passenger van? Really? I remember slogging up a hill on State Hwy 1 in northern New Zealand, and seeing a sign warning drivers to slow to 70 kph or whatever. But at the time we were screaming along in 2nd gear at 40 - 50 kph.
But of course there's a proud history of underpowered vans:
There were the first-gen Dodge and Plymouth vans ("Magic Wagons") with base K-Car engine - a 2.2 l four.
And of course the legendary VW bus, with its little flat air-cooled 4.
And there was the Toyota Previa, with its 2.4 l inline-4.
So by comparison to some of these, my two MPVs felt like rocket ships.
So all that to say, I wasn't too worried about the alleged power deficit in the 3rd-gen Sienna. I figured with the 6-speed automatic, it would be fine, but I've never driven one. It's probably moot anyway - as discussed previously, they are very rare here.
Checking out older minivans
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Good point! We never had a national 55 mph (90 kph) limit here, but nor have I ever seen any 75 or 80 mph (120/130 kph) in Canada.
Much of the TransCanada from here west is 110 kph (68ish mph) now, and our 2.3 l Mazda 5 is quite happy at that speed, even loaded up and hauling bikes externally.
However, I think our 5 actually has a slightly better power-to-weight ratio than the 2.7 l Sienna. Much smaller frontal area too. I could see the 2.7 being overwhelmed in a heavily loaded Sienna.
Much of the TransCanada from here west is 110 kph (68ish mph) now, and our 2.3 l Mazda 5 is quite happy at that speed, even loaded up and hauling bikes externally.
However, I think our 5 actually has a slightly better power-to-weight ratio than the 2.7 l Sienna. Much smaller frontal area too. I could see the 2.7 being overwhelmed in a heavily loaded Sienna.
The 2.7 with the 6spd was fine on the hwys and up and down the hills of Australia in a tall roof hiace camper but we weren't going over 65mph often . I assume the Sienna has a 4spd and as long as the top gear isn't super tall I think it would be fine. I remember as a kid going across the prairies in a 89 grand caravan v6 with 140hp and in ~30mph headwind it could not hold OD with the TC locked. So my Dad would run it up to 70mph or so in 3rd, let it shift to OD and let it bleed speed down to 60 and repeat. That was only really annoying because my Dad suspected the trans was junk already.
Our '90 MPV 2.6 l was rated at 121 HP/149 lb-ft torque, but was fine with the manual transmission. But even so, I used to turn off the AC when passing or climbing hills.
I like your dad's "pulse and glide" technique; sounds like he was an early hypermiler.
In addition to having a manual transmission, it didn't hurt that the MPV was 1000 lbs lighter than the 2011-2012 Sienna.
You're correct, and I had not taken the weight difference into account.
Per Edmund's:
1990 MPV (base, w/ 2.6 l engine, and presumably 5-passenger seating) = 3199 lbs
2011 Sienna (V6, and presumably 7-passenger seating) = 4490 lbs
Knock, what, 100 lbs off the Sienna to account for the 2.7 instead of the 3.5, and the difference is still well over 1000 lbs.
These are dry weights (presumably), and loaded up the Sienna could easily exceed 5000 lbs.
Yep. With 4 passengers, luggage, and a full tank of gas the Sienna easily exceeds 5000 lbs. That is an awful lot of weight for the little 4-cylinder to handle. There are some members of this board that think even the V/6 is underpowered.
If the 4-cylinder actually got better gas mileage, or if it could be purchased for a substantially lower price, I could see a somewhat compelling reason to purchase one, but it it fails on both counts.
If you want to purchase a Sienna, stick with the V/6. You will be happier with it.
Time for another update!
We have friends in the neighbourhood who have a sister/sister-in-law who works at a small indy used car lot with a good reputation, so I'd asked them to give me a heads-up on any minivans they get in.
So yesterday we looked at a 2007 Dodge Grand Caravan there.
Some pluses:
- One owner (an old woman who had to give up driving)
- No rust
- Full Stow-and-Go (middle seats and 3rd row)
- Split heat for driver and passenger
- OH heat ducts right back to the 3rd row
- Good overall shape
- Nice colour (a rich blue)
- Good price (< C$5K)
- Last MY for the 4th-gen Chrysler vans, so presumably with the bugs worked out
- Drives nicely
- Equipped with the solid 3.3 litre OHV pushrod engine
- Rural car, so likely easy miles (longer trips on unsalted roads)
- Factory roof rack
- No hitch (I would add one for our bike rack, but it's good to see that it hasn't been used to tow)
- Good all-season tires on factory alloys
- Worn winter tires on steelies included
Some minuses:
- Age (14 years)
- Mileage (200K km [124K miles])
- Reputation of the 4-speed AT
- Whine from under the hood that varies with engine speed - I'm guessing PS pump or alternator
We drove one of these new in 2006 when chaperoning a school hiking trip to the mountains, and it was awesome. Great highway cruiser that turned in very good mileage.
Anyway, we're pretty serious about it. The vendor doesn't know whether the tranny has been done yet or not. It was typical for these to fail by about 150K km here, so I'm hoping that's already been dealt with.
For the price, I could spent $2K on a tranny, and for the price if we get say 4 or 5 years out of it, that would be fine.
Regardless, I would quickly get it oil-sprayed to protect against rust, and would change all the fluids. Perhaps I should post the fluid issues separately under the mechanical maintenance subforum, but I'm here, so here's a quick plan of what I'd do:
Motor oil - Mobil 1 5W-30, with some short intervals if the oil gets dark early on
Oil filter - recommendations?
Brake Fluid - DOT 3 or DOT 4, whatever the owner's manual recommends
Coolant - recommendations?
ATF - I would like to use a synthetic, and like AMSOIL for ATF. Recommendations? Does the pan have a drain plug? On my Japanese car with AT (only one so far), the filter was actually a strainer - after seeing it, I never replaced it again, just did regular drain-and-fills. What about a GC - real filter? Change it once, and then do drains-and-fills thereafter?
PSF - Is ATF OK in a Dodge, or do they take a special PSF? If ATF, I would use the same synthetic as in the tranny.
I think that's it! Thanks in advance, all, for your feedback to come.
We have friends in the neighbourhood who have a sister/sister-in-law who works at a small indy used car lot with a good reputation, so I'd asked them to give me a heads-up on any minivans they get in.
So yesterday we looked at a 2007 Dodge Grand Caravan there.
Some pluses:
- One owner (an old woman who had to give up driving)
- No rust
- Full Stow-and-Go (middle seats and 3rd row)
- Split heat for driver and passenger
- OH heat ducts right back to the 3rd row
- Good overall shape
- Nice colour (a rich blue)
- Good price (< C$5K)
- Last MY for the 4th-gen Chrysler vans, so presumably with the bugs worked out
- Drives nicely
- Equipped with the solid 3.3 litre OHV pushrod engine
- Rural car, so likely easy miles (longer trips on unsalted roads)
- Factory roof rack
- No hitch (I would add one for our bike rack, but it's good to see that it hasn't been used to tow)
- Good all-season tires on factory alloys
- Worn winter tires on steelies included
Some minuses:
- Age (14 years)
- Mileage (200K km [124K miles])
- Reputation of the 4-speed AT
- Whine from under the hood that varies with engine speed - I'm guessing PS pump or alternator
We drove one of these new in 2006 when chaperoning a school hiking trip to the mountains, and it was awesome. Great highway cruiser that turned in very good mileage.
Anyway, we're pretty serious about it. The vendor doesn't know whether the tranny has been done yet or not. It was typical for these to fail by about 150K km here, so I'm hoping that's already been dealt with.
For the price, I could spent $2K on a tranny, and for the price if we get say 4 or 5 years out of it, that would be fine.
Regardless, I would quickly get it oil-sprayed to protect against rust, and would change all the fluids. Perhaps I should post the fluid issues separately under the mechanical maintenance subforum, but I'm here, so here's a quick plan of what I'd do:
Motor oil - Mobil 1 5W-30, with some short intervals if the oil gets dark early on
Oil filter - recommendations?
Brake Fluid - DOT 3 or DOT 4, whatever the owner's manual recommends
Coolant - recommendations?
ATF - I would like to use a synthetic, and like AMSOIL for ATF. Recommendations? Does the pan have a drain plug? On my Japanese car with AT (only one so far), the filter was actually a strainer - after seeing it, I never replaced it again, just did regular drain-and-fills. What about a GC - real filter? Change it once, and then do drains-and-fills thereafter?
PSF - Is ATF OK in a Dodge, or do they take a special PSF? If ATF, I would use the same synthetic as in the tranny.
I think that's it! Thanks in advance, all, for your feedback to come.
Sounds like a good plan. Not sure if 2007, used ATF+4 in the tranny. Any synthetic oil in Winnipeg would be a good idea.
You may get lucky and have zero tranny issues. I just had to put a new torque converter in my 2015. I have used it for towing a couple of times to bring shingles to the dump. I would do a drain and fill on the tranny and change the filter too.
You may get lucky and have zero tranny issues. I just had to put a new torque converter in my 2015. I have used it for towing a couple of times to bring shingles to the dump. I would do a drain and fill on the tranny and change the filter too.
The best ATF+4 to use is Redline C+
I think they also call for ATF+4 in the PS, so you're covered there, too.
You will want to get an aftermarket pan that has a drain plug, as it doesn't come with one from the factory. You will want to change the fluid annually, 30k km max.
If there's no rust on it, and you can get a good price, it can be a good deal
I think they also call for ATF+4 in the PS, so you're covered there, too.
You will want to get an aftermarket pan that has a drain plug, as it doesn't come with one from the factory. You will want to change the fluid annually, 30k km max.
If there's no rust on it, and you can get a good price, it can be a good deal
No 4 cyl siennas were ever sold in Canada. If you find one, it'll be imported from the US or hybrid. The last toyota van with a 4 cyl sold in Canada was the previa. We're on our second 2005 Sienna. The first we bought new in 2005 and drove to 130k (210k kms) miles and sold it a few years ago when my father passed away and we inherited his 2005 sienna with 28k kms (20k miles or so). This second sienna has 93k kms on it now and runs like a top. We did get the timing belt/water pump replaced recently due to age (15years on the original) and I replaced the torque mount as it made a clunking noise. literally $36 in repairs over 15 years. It is one of our daily drivers.
If it helps, my parents just gave away their 2004 Grand Caravan that had ~182,000 miles (292,900km) still with the original factory transmission that shifted like new. It saw 1 trans flush (I know I know) at 100,000 miles/160,934km with ATF+4. My dads coworker is using it as the work beater/shop runabout now.
There have definitely been a few used 2011 and 2012 4-banger Siennas for sale in Canada in the last few months, and I'd always assumed they were sold here new, but it's possible they were imported used from the US. All of the ones I looked at stated the mileage in km, but it's possible they were doing a conversion.
Glad to hear your Siennas have been good!
No hitch is a great sign. Also check the color & condition of the trans fluid. It does not have to be "perfect" just normal. As long as its not burnt or something, I think you have a real winner right there. Buy it, change all the fluids, and I bet that GC will last you many many years.
Absolutely, that was one of the first things I looked at - the fluid was pink and didn't smell burnt. If we buy the van, I'll change the fluid anyway, of course.
The utility of the vehicle is incredible. I didn't realize that they'd started doing the middle-row Stow ' n Go that early. Pleasant surprise!
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I’d get the proper coolant the north American stuff. Don’t use all makes all models that is one of the things I can’t stand is universal fluids. Oil filters I’m a Wix or Bosch guy.
Another weakness of these vans I've heard about is that the complex cable system suspending the spare tire underneath is prone to seize up. I e-mailed the seller this morning, asking that they ensure it works properly.
I think the failure is usually rust-related, and given that the van looks very good for its age, hopefully the spare tire assembly is still good.
I think the failure is usually rust-related, and given that the van looks very good for its age, hopefully the spare tire assembly is still good.
It appears that the 4-cylinder Sienna was in fact sold in Canada, according to autos.ca (since bought out by Canadian Auto Trader) and auto123
A used car review also mentions the 2.7, and the Canadian EPA has fuel economy ratings for both 2011 and 2012 4-cylinder Sienna.
It is possible that some dealers didn't want to order them, in order to push you up to the more expensive V6. Possibly, they were just as unpopular up there as they were down here.
