Changing oil less often is better for your engine - SAE

[StevieC]

Use the proper lab with proper analysis and they will tell you whether or not the soot is a problem. Use other cheaper services and well good luck it's nothing more than a "feel good" report that doesn't tell you much especially with interpreted numbers.

Amazing though that we had timing chains in other engines with sooting for decades with 0 issues until certain OE's decided to go with poorer quality chains and well we had to invent a new oil spec to fix their mess.

 

[Brigadier]

Wow, you just don't want to get it. GDI has changed the game.

Good luck with your longer OCI.

 

[PimTac]

The vast majority of owners don't get their oil analyzed and the number of those who do get a uoa are not interpreting the info properly.

This does not include fleets. This is for the average Joe who gets one done.

I've never had one done and likely never will. I'll save the money

 

[Brigadier]

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...604432/all/The_Great_Generational_Divide



Quote
"Extended" oil changes on DI are not good. Soot accumulation and fuel dilution rule this out. You say your UOA wear levels are good? Does a UOA measure how soot levels are affecting your timing chain?
Tribologic film, you say? The fuel dilution literally changes your oil. It is not the same oil as when it was new. Fuel dilution(particularly ethanol blended gasoline) reduces(or eliminates) your boundary layer lubrication. It also reduces your viscosity, and essentially your oil becomes a oil/gasoline/ethanol blend. So, if you're saving your tribologic film for your next oil change, forget it. You don't want that one.

There is some evidence that the more used your oil is(as opposed to new or newer oil), that influences LSPI negatively. Thin oil, you say? There is some evidence that lower viscosity affects LSPI negatively. Synthetic oil, you say? There is some evidence for Group I-IV oils, the higher the Group, the more LSPI. These three are all secondary, or tertiary, but still evident.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by PimTac
The vast majority of owners don't get their oil analyzed and the number of those who do get a uoa are not interpreting the info properly.

This does not include fleets. This is for the average Joe who gets one done.

I've never had one done and likely never will. I'll save the money

It's everyone's personal choice and that's fine. All I was getting at is that according to the SAE there can be reduced friction and wear with longer OCI's. Of course backing this up with the proper UOA is necessary to find the safe limit and operating within it given everyone application and driving pattern. But guaranteed a UOA will always result in the lubricant being possible to run further than the manufacturer claims.

For most folks like you and me it becomes a cost issue of what mileage are we comfortable with and what does that cost us. I myself use expensive oil but I also will run it within the UOA safe limit and have had 0 issues with it in my vehicle and the others I service with the same oil. I just run my oil long enough that it cost me less per mile than doing a conventional change a couple times in the same interval.

My father in-laws Caravan and CRV do ~ 30,000km (18K miles) per year on a single oil change and have been doing so for the past couple of years, the UOA's show there is still life remaining in the oil but being at the 1 year limit we dump it anyway because even $65 (Canadian) for an oil change is cheap if you are running it all year and would have to do multiple conventional changes in the same time period at about $40 each.

 

[Brigadier]

Nevermind. I'm a bit slow today. I just realized you are fully addicted to the Amsoil Kool Aid. Carry on.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by Brigadier
Nevermind. I'm a bit slow today. I just realized you are fully addicted to the Amsoil Kool Aid. Carry on.

Where did I mention Amsoil?

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by Brigadier
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...604432/all/The_Great_Generational_Divide



Quote
"Extended" oil changes on DI are not good. Soot accumulation and fuel dilution rule this out. You say your UOA wear levels are good? Does a UOA measure how soot levels are affecting your timing chain?
Tribologic film, you say? The fuel dilution literally changes your oil. It is not the same oil as when it was new. Fuel dilution(particularly ethanol blended gasoline) reduces(or eliminates) your boundary layer lubrication. It also reduces your viscosity, and essentially your oil becomes a oil/gasoline/ethanol blend. So, if you're saving your tribologic film for your next oil change, forget it. You don't want that one.

There is some evidence that the more used your oil is(as opposed to new or newer oil), that influences LSPI negatively. Thin oil, you say? There is some evidence that lower viscosity affects LSPI negatively. Synthetic oil, you say? There is some evidence for Group I-IV oils, the higher the Group, the more LSPI. These three are all secondary, or tertiary, but still evident.



I didn't mention wear shown on the UOA, I mentioned that the UOA will tell you if the lubricant is good for continued use. You are twisting words and I see you edited this post to include a chart. If you use proper analysis it will tell you whether the lubricant can be used further or it should be dumped. Going by blanket manual recommendations is just a fail-safe and will always be more conservative than necessary because they know the average user isn't going to spend the money to do proper analysis to establish a safe limit.

But that's ok you waste money on more frequent oil changes without confirming what is possible. It will end well for your engine just not for your wallet.

 

[Brigadier]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by Brigadier
Nevermind. I'm a bit slow today. I just realized you are fully addicted to the Amsoil Kool Aid. Carry on.

Where did I mention Amsoil?




Your signature

 

[tcp71]

Originally Posted by StevieC

It
My father in-laws Caravan and CRV do ~ 30,000km (18K miles) per year on a single oil change and have been doing so for the past couple of years, the UOA's show there is still life remaining in the oil but being at the 1 year limit we dump it anyway because even $65 (Canadian) for an oil change is cheap if you are running it all year and would have to do multiple conventional changes in the same time period at about $40 each.



I suspect neither of those have direct injection, turbo'd or otherwise. Do either of the them even have a timing chain? You keep throwing oranges into the apple crate. This example doesn't apply. Have a look at ford ecoboost DI twin turbo 3.5l engine timing chain issues.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

Every vehicle is a specific stressor.
As far as soot, my previous BMW f30 turbo 4 was the biggest soot producer evidenced by the exhuast deposits.
BMW spared me from excessive ocd by omitting a dipstick

My Tacoma has both direct and port injection but nonturbo. No evidence of soot in the tailpipe. But the truck is used like a truck, it tows, and does a lot of rough stuff at low speeds as well as idling for personal and creature comfort.
and is on the severe 6mo/5k schedule.

My 4 runner has it easiest. It is port injected and has duties as my wife's car. It does get a lot of city driving and judging by the engine hour gauge, she idles it a lot.
So severe duty intervals for that one too.

I do find the original post interesting and agree from previous studies that aged engine oil in conventional engines is working better with age until the additives are depleted.
But fuel and soot are now an increasing stressor in today's non conventional engines and basic oil analysis has not adapted to this threat. It is easier to just buy the best value oil that meets the spec and change it until the big blind spot in uoa's is addressed.

 

[Brigadier]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by Brigadier
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...604432/all/The_Great_Generational_Divide



Quote
"Extended" oil changes on DI are not good. Soot accumulation and fuel dilution rule this out. You say your UOA wear levels are good? Does a UOA measure how soot levels are affecting your timing chain?
Tribologic film, you say? The fuel dilution literally changes your oil. It is not the same oil as when it was new. Fuel dilution(particularly ethanol blended gasoline) reduces(or eliminates) your boundary layer lubrication. It also reduces your viscosity, and essentially your oil becomes a oil/gasoline/ethanol blend. So, if you're saving your tribologic film for your next oil change, forget it. You don't want that one.

There is some evidence that the more used your oil is(as opposed to new or newer oil), that influences LSPI negatively. Thin oil, you say? There is some evidence that lower viscosity affects LSPI negatively. Synthetic oil, you say? There is some evidence for Group I-IV oils, the higher the Group, the more LSPI. These three are all secondary, or tertiary, but still evident.



I didn't mention wear shown on the UOA, I mentioned that the UOA will tell you if the lubricant is good for continued use. You are twisting words and I see you edited this post to include a chart. If you use proper analysis it will tell you whether the lubricant can be used further or it should be dumped. Going by blanket manual recommendations is just a fail-safe and will always be more conservative than necessary because they know the average user isn't going to spend the money to do proper analysis to establish a safe limit.

But that's ok you waste money on more frequent oil changes without confirming what is possible. It will end well for your engine just not for your wallet.

How will an oil be good for continued use if it is full of timing chain destroying GDI soot that is not reported in the UOA? Also, GDI engines produce fuel dilution, enough to potentially remove your precious boundry layer lubrication. Fuel/ethanol are solvents. Not lubricants.

But I am sure Amsoil will have your back.

 

[StevieC]

It has been that way since I started using Amsoil in 2008, how is that relevant to this thread? Did I say everyone should be using it and that only Amsoil can provide safe extended OCI's? If you think so you might want to read the threads where I said the complete opposite many times. I even said that I would use a Shelf-Oil if I could get the same pricing and rebates as found in the U.S.

Oh and for the record I was an M1 user prior to Amsoil but up here they are about the same price when not on sale so I went with Amsoil out of convenience because it's shipped to me door. (Said this many times before). If you refer to other threads you will see that anytime Pennzoil or M1 or Valvoline is on sale here where it would be cheaper than Amsoil I can't find any because it's all gone. So out of convenience I continue to use Amsoil.

I never said Amsoil was superior to any other synthetic, just that I have had good results with it. I literally could care less what people use and would use shelf-synthetic myself if I could find what I'm looking for at a good price.

Happy Thursday.

 

[SeaJay]

Originally Posted by Brigadier
Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by PimTac
Trying to fit a blanket idea on multiple situations never works out. Getting people off of the every 3k oci is one thing but pushing longer oci on some of today's engines is not a good idea.


UOA's with TBN/TAN is a good way to gauge what is safe or following the conservative OLM's with a high quality oil. But yeah I agree 3K OCI needs to go even 6K is more than fine with just about every engine out there today.

I just found it interesting that there is less friction and wear as an oil ages a bit than with fresh oil.



Right, that is why my owner's manual recommends 3750 oci for severe service which just about 90% of BITOGER's fall under. But hey, what do they know?

Go ahead with your extended OCI, we will wait for your post on your bad timing chains on your GDI engine due to the soot floating around in your oil for so long.


More like 99.9% of BItOGers believe they require severe service if I can count.

 

[StevieC]

SeaJay, yeah without actually confirming they need it while Europe laughs at our short intervals.

 

[Brigadier]

I go by my average speed. 27 mph. That is not a majority of highway driving. Lots of stop and go.

Oil is cheap insurance. Especially given how the cost of repairs has skyrocketed lately.

 

[Kjmack]

Jeesh i get so tired of people fighting about everything from best cookie to Conservative to Liberal . I dont even watch TV anymore because its all hate all the time . I get on a oil site to see whats new and great and its the same BS , personal attacks . Im going to watch a puppy video on youtube .

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by Bryanccfshr
I do find the original post interesting and agree from previous studies that aged engine oil in conventional engines is working better with age until the additives are depleted.
But fuel and soot are now an increasing stressor in today's non conventional engines and basic oil analysis has not adapted to this threat. It is easier to just buy the best value oil that meets the spec and change it until the big blind spot in uoa's is addressed.


There is quality analysis out there but folks like to spend less on places like Wix, Wearcheck, or Blackstone where you are really getting what you pay for.

I look at it this way, if I spend $150 for a quality analysis once and find out what the limit for the lubricant I'm using in my driving pattern / application is and then I set the OCI below this level (margin of error), I'm going to save over just changing at the "Severe Duty" OCI in the manual and not have to worry about sacrificing longevity over those OCI's because it's all calculated properly and not conservatively. Plus according to the SAE I will benefit from decreased friction and wear because of less changes, and less aggravation having to crawl under the vehicle in the dead of winter because I'm using shorter OCI's than needed.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by Brigadier
https://www.autoserviceworld.com/carsmagazine/dont-blame-the-oil/

Quote
Gasoline direct injection (GDI) is a technology that is becoming the norm in our industry. It has created some concerns with deposits as well (See "Clearing the Carbon" on page 36). Some of these engines are prone to valve deposit issues but there's another area of concern: soot.

The GDI combustion process is introducing more soot into the engine's oil. The soot that a GDI engine creates is carbonaceous and not like regular soot created in a non-GDI engines. This has captured the attention of both car manufacturers and lubricant manufacturers.

GDI-produced soot has been found to react with certain lubricants and additive packages in a very unique way. Traditionally, soot leads to the thickening of engine oil and eventually the formation of sludge. But this soot tends to cause engine wear. The combination of combustion acids, fuel dilution from incomplete combustion and GDI soot, has been found to be a substantial reason for accelerated timing chain wear. It may not be a coincidence that GM's 2.4 and 3.6 engines - which suffer from timing chain issues - use gasoline direct injection.


Just a FYI...be careful with these types of publications. Many times they just regurgitate something that someone else said vs providing corroborating evidence.

GDI alone doesn't mean extended OCI's are gone so making blanket statements, outside of a Kia/Hyundai forum, really don't do anyone any good.

Engine design, material choices, oil capacity, and operating environment also have an impact.

 

[Donald]

Taken decent care of, something else will cause the car to end up at the boneyard other than the engine. Rust would be a big one. Depreciation is also one. When the car is 15 years old a major transmission problem might be reason to dump the car, maybe to the boneyard.