My current bike has shaft drive, and as a daily ride the lack of maintenance is a real bonus. Over the life of the bike it would be a lot cheaper than chain or belt drive....and my yearly 300ml oil change less that chain lube over the same period.
Chain, Belt, Shaft Drive Pros & Cons
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Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: grampi
The only thing shaft drive requires is the occasional oil change...
You didn't mention the occasional re greasing of the splines and drive pins...
Probably because of the several shaft drives I've had none of them have ever needed that done...
Originally Posted By: grampi
The only thing shaft drive requires is the occasional oil change...
You didn't mention the occasional re greasing of the splines and drive pins...
Probably because of the several shaft drives I've had none of them have ever needed that done...
Originally Posted By: Ducman
And replacement of axles, axle seals, bearings and trunions in the various articulated joints associated with the Rear Drive.
Also the bushes in the control links/arms.
Shaft drive systems can be overrated, and they're certainly over complicated by necessity otherwise they perform poorly.
I've never heard of anyone having to replace any of these parts, so apparently they very rarely ever need replacing...the seal in my drive hub was replaced last year because I had my hub chromed and my mechanic replaces the seal anytime he takes one apart whether it's bad or not just for insurance...
And replacement of axles, axle seals, bearings and trunions in the various articulated joints associated with the Rear Drive.
Also the bushes in the control links/arms.
Shaft drive systems can be overrated, and they're certainly over complicated by necessity otherwise they perform poorly.
I've never heard of anyone having to replace any of these parts, so apparently they very rarely ever need replacing...the seal in my drive hub was replaced last year because I had my hub chromed and my mechanic replaces the seal anytime he takes one apart whether it's bad or not just for insurance...
Tell me more about it then.
Because it happens once a week in the workshop where I work.
I have the pleasure of becoming quite proficient at repairs to rear drives, on a particular brand of a highly regarded motorcycle which has a number of models with the system.
The worst part is, the bike can need to be rebooked and brought in later for the repairs because the parts are often out of stock.
Or worse still, the bike is knocked back for a roadworthy and has to be held out the back of the workshop taking up/wasting valuable space until the parts eventually come in to effect the repair.
This can be weeks/months.
Sometimes the worst part is not the reassembly of the rear drive inself but the insertion of the drive shaft into the torque tube.
Not to mention the re-engagement of the front uni joint with the output shaft splines of the transmission.
It all has to be done by feel and a great big dose of luck because you can't see up into the front of the drive shaft tube.
Sometimes you get lucky and it happens in a relatively short period of time.
Other times it can take a very long time to just insert and engage the drive shaft with the transmission output shaft.
It's all chargeable at an elevated hourly rate.
Because it happens once a week in the workshop where I work.
I have the pleasure of becoming quite proficient at repairs to rear drives, on a particular brand of a highly regarded motorcycle which has a number of models with the system.
The worst part is, the bike can need to be rebooked and brought in later for the repairs because the parts are often out of stock.
Or worse still, the bike is knocked back for a roadworthy and has to be held out the back of the workshop taking up/wasting valuable space until the parts eventually come in to effect the repair.
This can be weeks/months.
Sometimes the worst part is not the reassembly of the rear drive inself but the insertion of the drive shaft into the torque tube.
Not to mention the re-engagement of the front uni joint with the output shaft splines of the transmission.
It all has to be done by feel and a great big dose of luck because you can't see up into the front of the drive shaft tube.
Sometimes you get lucky and it happens in a relatively short period of time.
Other times it can take a very long time to just insert and engage the drive shaft with the transmission output shaft.
It's all chargeable at an elevated hourly rate.
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I'm going to guess you're referring to BMW's.
I can neither confirm nor deny.
But seeing as you mention BMW's, I find it interesting that they are a manufacturer which designs and implements a variation of all the drive systems discussed in this thread.
All of the systems have their unique advantages and disadvantages.
The choice of drive system that BMW currently chooses to implement in a given application, is a fairly good guide as to the suitability of the system.
If it were my money, I wouldn't have a shaft drive bike(for a number of reasons) unless it was given to me, and I have been involved with shaft drive bikes since the late 70's.
But seeing as you mention BMW's, I find it interesting that they are a manufacturer which designs and implements a variation of all the drive systems discussed in this thread.
All of the systems have their unique advantages and disadvantages.
The choice of drive system that BMW currently chooses to implement in a given application, is a fairly good guide as to the suitability of the system.
If it were my money, I wouldn't have a shaft drive bike(for a number of reasons) unless it was given to me, and I have been involved with shaft drive bikes since the late 70's.
One benefit that no one mentioned with shaft drive is it doesn't allow dirt from the environment into the system. While rare, a few people with belt drives have snapped belts when a small piece of debris like a rock has gotten between the belt and pulley. And a chain is often a dirt magnet due to the lubrication needs versus a belt.
So I can see on some kinds of bikes where the shaft has it's benefits, but if we are talking BMW I can say that they sure do like to do the typical German thing and overcomplicate things from time to time just to do so.
So I can see on some kinds of bikes where the shaft has it's benefits, but if we are talking BMW I can say that they sure do like to do the typical German thing and overcomplicate things from time to time just to do so.
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
The pros and cons of each...
Lightest weight...
1 belt
2 chain
3 shaft
Best efficiency...
1 belt
2 chain
3 shaft
Lowest maintenance...
1 belt
2 shaft
3 chain
Most expensive...
1 shaft
2 belt
2 chain
Least amount of drive line snatch...
1 belt
2 shaft
3 chain
Biggest vocal following...
1 shaft
2 chain
3 belt
1... belt drives are 5 lb. lighter than chain...
2... belt drives only sap 2% of available engine power and never take more
through it's life... whereas chains start sapping 2% and progressively
sap up to 7% near their end...
3... belts don't need slack and therefore are positive drives whereas
chains need slack and are snatch drives...
So lighter... more power... less snatch is why I went ahead and
converted my VF500F Interceptor into the famous Belt-o-ceptor... plus
the fact Honda said it was impossible... well all it took was 8 months
worth of engineering and machine work plus $1500.00 in parts...
Belt life was good... going 2 times the distance of a chain and
it covered 40K miles without needing any adjustment...
Honda VFR1200 Veefalo $4148.00 / 40 pound shaft system...
The only one I disagree with is maintenance. Shaft drive requires less maintenance than does a belt. Belts need to have the tension adjusted, and they need to be replaced from time to time, which requires the removal of the swingarm. The only thing shaft drive requires is the occasional oil change...
I like that story.
The shaft drive requires less maintenance, only if all is going well.
If it's not then good luck to you.
Belts rarely need to have the belt tension adjusted, and it's not hard nor is it laborious.
Replacement is rather rare. Actually I've known them to go well over 100,000 kms without replacement or a problem with worn components.
The Harley belt system is superb IMO.
The only real weakness with a belt drive system is in the unlikely and rare event of a stone being thrown into between the belt and sprocket, which causes the belt to break and all drive can be lost as a result.
Removal and replacement of the rear axle is the only thing required for a belt change, and is no different to the scope of work required to change a flat/worn tyre which I estimate to take 15-20 minutes tops all going to plan and taking care.
No need to check for lateral play in the trunions.
No oil to change.
No drain plug magnet to thoroughly clean off.
No waste oil to dispose of.
No requirement to replace the drain plug because some idiot who has worked on it previously has used the wrong bit to remove/tighten the drain plug and ruined the socket end.
No components like the rear brake calliper, sensors and rear wheel to remove in order to drain/refill the drive unit with fresh oil, also the time taken to complete the process.
No necessity to disconnect the rear drive and rotate it down in order to drain the unit through the filler hole on earlier models.
Oh yeah, they're good alright.
The occasional oil change hey.
Oh well, it helps to pay my bills.
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
The pros and cons of each...
Lightest weight...
1 belt
2 chain
3 shaft
Best efficiency...
1 belt
2 chain
3 shaft
Lowest maintenance...
1 belt
2 shaft
3 chain
Most expensive...
1 shaft
2 belt
2 chain
Least amount of drive line snatch...
1 belt
2 shaft
3 chain
Biggest vocal following...
1 shaft
2 chain
3 belt
1... belt drives are 5 lb. lighter than chain...
2... belt drives only sap 2% of available engine power and never take more
through it's life... whereas chains start sapping 2% and progressively
sap up to 7% near their end...
3... belts don't need slack and therefore are positive drives whereas
chains need slack and are snatch drives...
So lighter... more power... less snatch is why I went ahead and
converted my VF500F Interceptor into the famous Belt-o-ceptor... plus
the fact Honda said it was impossible... well all it took was 8 months
worth of engineering and machine work plus $1500.00 in parts...
Belt life was good... going 2 times the distance of a chain and
it covered 40K miles without needing any adjustment...
Honda VFR1200 Veefalo $4148.00 / 40 pound shaft system...
The only one I disagree with is maintenance. Shaft drive requires less maintenance than does a belt. Belts need to have the tension adjusted, and they need to be replaced from time to time, which requires the removal of the swingarm. The only thing shaft drive requires is the occasional oil change...
I like that story.
The shaft drive requires less maintenance, only if all is going well.
If it's not then good luck to you.
Belts rarely need to have the belt tension adjusted, and it's not hard nor is it laborious.
Replacement is rather rare. Actually I've known them to go well over 100,000 kms without replacement or a problem with worn components.
The Harley belt system is superb IMO.
The only real weakness with a belt drive system is in the unlikely and rare event of a stone being thrown into between the belt and sprocket, which causes the belt to break and all drive can be lost as a result.
Removal and replacement of the rear axle is the only thing required for a belt change, and is no different to the scope of work required to change a flat/worn tyre which I estimate to take 15-20 minutes tops all going to plan and taking care.
No need to check for lateral play in the trunions.
No oil to change.
No drain plug magnet to thoroughly clean off.
No waste oil to dispose of.
No requirement to replace the drain plug because some idiot who has worked on it previously has used the wrong bit to remove/tighten the drain plug and ruined the socket end.
No components like the rear brake calliper, sensors and rear wheel to remove in order to drain/refill the drive unit with fresh oil, also the time taken to complete the process.
No necessity to disconnect the rear drive and rotate it down in order to drain the unit through the filler hole on earlier models.
Oh yeah, they're good alright.
The occasional oil change hey.
Oh well, it helps to pay my bills.
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Belt failure can be sudden. Chain wear can be observed and the replacement planned ahead. 25,000 miles from a modern o-ring chain with normal lubrication is common; 40,000 miles with an automatic oiler is possible.
In the local mc shop one day, a Suzuki C50 was on the stand. The shaft drive was apart and nothing but rust inside. I don't know the owner's maintenance schedule, but lots of expensive parts had to be replaced. The mechanic is BMW-trained, and he tells me about the BMW final drives with no drain or fill plugs in certain years, 'cuz their oil & parts won't ever wear out.... He has lots of experience fixing all the BMW final drives. He also showed me the '09 G800GS that was brought in for a funny noise--12,000 miles and the owner had never done anything but put gas in it...factory oil still in the engine. The rear sprocket was worn down to the nubs and the chain was slipping. Brake pads down to 1 mm. Chain, sprockets, oil, brake pads, brake fluid, new tires--that owner got a bill, but got a fun bike back. Now the cost of a neglected shaft drive....$$$$
In the local mc shop one day, a Suzuki C50 was on the stand. The shaft drive was apart and nothing but rust inside. I don't know the owner's maintenance schedule, but lots of expensive parts had to be replaced. The mechanic is BMW-trained, and he tells me about the BMW final drives with no drain or fill plugs in certain years, 'cuz their oil & parts won't ever wear out.... He has lots of experience fixing all the BMW final drives. He also showed me the '09 G800GS that was brought in for a funny noise--12,000 miles and the owner had never done anything but put gas in it...factory oil still in the engine. The rear sprocket was worn down to the nubs and the chain was slipping. Brake pads down to 1 mm. Chain, sprockets, oil, brake pads, brake fluid, new tires--that owner got a bill, but got a fun bike back. Now the cost of a neglected shaft drive....$$$$
I find it strange that in the 40+ years I've been riding motorcycles, 30+ of which have been spent around people with shaft drive bikes, numerous forums over the years with thousands of people who own shaft drive bikes, none of which have ever had any problems with their shaft drive systems, and yet you have people standing in line to get their shaft systems repaired. Sounds like only people your area are having shaft problems...
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People who work on bikes for a living tend to see the ones that break more than us riders...just saying.
Kind of like in my everyday travels I rarely see crimes being committed, but if I was a law enforcement officer I would see it all the time.
I am sure there are shaft bikes that do indeed fail, but I bet that more often than not the owner is at fault for neglect and abuse. And when that combo takes its toll, the result is a lot of labor and expensive parts.
Kind of like in my everyday travels I rarely see crimes being committed, but if I was a law enforcement officer I would see it all the time.
I am sure there are shaft bikes that do indeed fail, but I bet that more often than not the owner is at fault for neglect and abuse. And when that combo takes its toll, the result is a lot of labor and expensive parts.
I've ridden four different street motorcycles in my 30+ years of riding. Three have been shaft drive. Both my 78 Honda CX500 and my 81 Yamaha XS850 were problem free.
Then I bought a K1100 BMW three years ago....
Granted it did have 75k on the clock when I bought it BUT thirty days after I got it, the front U joint on the driveshaft broke. I replaced it with a low mileage used driveshaft after checking into what a new shaft cost ($750!!).
While repairing that, I pulled the transmission to grease the splines, an operation that BMW recommends doing every 40K by the way. I love the bike, but the final drive leaves something to be desired. BMW has two meanings - Bikes Made Weird and Bring Money in a Wheelbarrow.
Then I bought a K1100 BMW three years ago....
Granted it did have 75k on the clock when I bought it BUT thirty days after I got it, the front U joint on the driveshaft broke. I replaced it with a low mileage used driveshaft after checking into what a new shaft cost ($750!!).
While repairing that, I pulled the transmission to grease the splines, an operation that BMW recommends doing every 40K by the way. I love the bike, but the final drive leaves something to be desired. BMW has two meanings - Bikes Made Weird and Bring Money in a Wheelbarrow.
I worked with a guy that had a 650 shaft drive and something in it needed replacement at a mileage I wouldn't even think the lube would need replacing. I forgot the exact mileage but it was well under 15k, maybe even half that. I would guess it is a fluke but I don't see how it was anything he did.
I wonder how belt drive does in extreme cold, is there any problem there?
Shaft drive is the only type that is sealed, which should be better on dirt roads.
I wonder how belt drive does in extreme cold, is there any problem there?
Shaft drive is the only type that is sealed, which should be better on dirt roads.
I've been running rear belt drives for 12 years thru the winter, with no problems.,,
Not everyone is about power though. And on certain bikes with shaft drive like the Triumph Rocket III and the Vmax, there is still plenty of power at the wheel despite the shaft drive. Only truly thing I have about shaft drives is shaft jacking.
Originally Posted By: datech
I worked with a guy that had a 650 shaft drive and something in it needed replacement at a mileage I wouldn't even think the lube would need replacing. I forgot the exact mileage but it was well under 15k, maybe even half that. I would guess it is a fluke but I don't see how it was anything he did.
I wonder how belt drive does in extreme cold, is there any problem there?
Shaft drive is the only type that is sealed, which should be better on dirt roads.
I don't see where the cold would present any problem for belt drive...though it certainly presents a problem for the rider!
I worked with a guy that had a 650 shaft drive and something in it needed replacement at a mileage I wouldn't even think the lube would need replacing. I forgot the exact mileage but it was well under 15k, maybe even half that. I would guess it is a fluke but I don't see how it was anything he did.
I wonder how belt drive does in extreme cold, is there any problem there?
Shaft drive is the only type that is sealed, which should be better on dirt roads.
I don't see where the cold would present any problem for belt drive...though it certainly presents a problem for the rider!
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Not everyone is about power though. And on certain bikes with shaft drive like the Triumph Rocket III and the Vmax, there is still plenty of power at the wheel despite the shaft drive. Only truly thing I have about shaft drives is shaft jacking.
Even shaft jacking isn't as much of a problem anymore...in decades past, shaft jacking would actually cause a bike to want to go to one side or the other on certain bikes...now days it seems the jacking pushes the bike straight up, and the rear tire straight down into the pavement, which isn't necessarily a bad thing...
Not everyone is about power though. And on certain bikes with shaft drive like the Triumph Rocket III and the Vmax, there is still plenty of power at the wheel despite the shaft drive. Only truly thing I have about shaft drives is shaft jacking.
Even shaft jacking isn't as much of a problem anymore...in decades past, shaft jacking would actually cause a bike to want to go to one side or the other on certain bikes...now days it seems the jacking pushes the bike straight up, and the rear tire straight down into the pavement, which isn't necessarily a bad thing...
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