Never mind.
Castrol 0w-40 LL-01 ?
- Thread starter M1256
- Start date
BMW LL-01 is based on ACEA A3/B4. In addition, it requires an N20-engine performance test and aeration (foaming) test and an N42-engine wear test using the radionuclide technique (RNT).
Here is Lubrizol's description of BMW LL-01, along with the typically coupled approvals (link). It appears that 0W-40 oils are no longer allowed for BMW LL-01 approval, which explains why you see it less often these days. It doesn't appear to be because it is a harder to get or tougher approval.
Porsche A40 is based on ACEA A3/B4 as well. It reportedly requires the following tests:
This test will last 203 hours. The engine, and the oil, will go through:
- 4 times the simulation of 35 hours of summer driving,
- 4 times the simulation of 13.5 hours of winter driving,
- 40 cold starts,
- 5 times the simulation of 1-hour sessions on the “Nürburgring” racetrack,
- 3.5 hours of “running-in” program
Measurements on the engine and on the oil will be done at regular intervals, and the following parameter
will be taken into account to grant the approval or not:
- torque curve (internal friction),
- oxidation of the oil,
- Piston cleanliness and ring sticking,
- Valve train wear protection. Cam & tappet wear must be less than 10 μm.
- Engine cleanliness and sludge: after 203 hours, no deposits must be visible.
- Bearing wear protection: visual rating according to Porsche in-house method.
Additives are sold as liquids. I guess the third-party additive companies can also provide preapproved BMW LL-01 add packs, which they already test for certain base oils and VIIs.
Here are some lists. Note that some of them are outdated:
https://www.718forum.com/attachments/oils-a40-pdf.26816/
(Click Save as, then select Keep.)
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1543670
http://www.bimmernut.com/~billr/images/m52tuSpecialOils.pdf
The Castrol edge 0w-30 C3 have the BMW LL04 on the german homepage. Also BMW 19 FEThink some changes have done to BMW approval program, or Castrol is messing up their approvals on the homepages world wide.
What 'BMW (LL-) 19 FE' are you even talking about?
The latest I'm aware of is called BMW Longlife-17 FE+, which appears being a 0W-20.
This is Castrol's German homepage. Castrol claims their 0W-30 meets both LL-04 and
a so-called 'LL-19 FE' simultaneously:
https://www.castrol.com/de_de/germa...astrol-edge-brand/castrol-edge.html#tab_0w-30
This is the very first time I see a PCMO supposedly fulfill two BMW approvals instead
of a single one. Something I have a very hard time to believe. It's also the first time I
see a LL-04 being a 0W since 2018/2019 when BMW revised both LL-01 and LL-04.
Don't you think this oddity raises some questions? I agree that Castrol is a reputable
company and I'm quite surprised to see that from them. That said, I wasn't able to
find anything 'LL-19 FE' anywhere else.
.
@Gokhan
Thanks for the info!
Curious why 0W-40 are "no longer allowed"?
Few questions regarding that:
From your post:
"It appears that 0W-40 oils are no longer allowed for BMW LL-01 approval, which explains why you see it less often these days. It doesn't appear to be because it is a harder to get or tougher approval."
From your Lubrizol link:
BMW Longlife 01 oils are typically high HTHS (≥ 3.5cP) SAE 5W-30 and 5W-40 based on API Group III base oils.
Thanks for the info!
Curious why 0W-40 are "no longer allowed"?
Few questions regarding that:
- Is it possibly because of undesired vm amounts due to wider spread?
- Can you make 0W with only Group III? Going based on lubrizol info below, is that a hard requirement? i.e. LL-01 oils have to be purely grp iii?
From your post:
"It appears that 0W-40 oils are no longer allowed for BMW LL-01 approval, which explains why you see it less often these days. It doesn't appear to be because it is a harder to get or tougher approval."
From your Lubrizol link:
BMW Longlife 01 oils are typically high HTHS (≥ 3.5cP) SAE 5W-30 and 5W-40 based on API Group III base oils.
Can be some homepage issue, not the first time in EU...
.
I suspect that to be the case.
LL-01 doesn't need to be group 3. Why even should it?
There are LL-01 approved oils made from group 3 incl.
GTL (Shell, Pennzoil, QS) and group 4 existing.
This one is mainly group 4 (with some group 5) base oil
while coming with an approval according to BMW LL-01:
https://www.ravenol.de/en/product/m...avenol-rsp-racing-super-performance-sae-5w-30
https://www.ravenol.de/en/motorsport/technology#
(I used it once but generally prefer using LL-04)
.
I suspect that to be the case.
LL-01 doesn't need to be group 3. Why even should it?
There are LL-01 approved oils made from group 3 incl.
GTL (Shell, Pennzoil, QS) and group 4 existing.
This one is mainly group 4 (with some group 5) base oil
while coming with an approval according to BMW LL-01:
https://www.ravenol.de/en/product/m...avenol-rsp-racing-super-performance-sae-5w-30
https://www.ravenol.de/en/motorsport/technology#
(I used it once but generally prefer using LL-04)
.
API base-oil interchangeability guidelines require retesting for certain ASTM test sequences if PAO (Group IV) is substituted for Group III, including GTL. The same is probably true for ACEA and European OEMs.
https://www.api.org/~/media/Files/C...esel/Publications/AnnEREV043019 rev043019.pdf
It is possible that the preapproved third-party add packs are tested for a Group III base oil and cannot be used with a PAO base oil. You can make a 0W-40 with a high-quality Group III base oil like GTL but probably not with a lower-quality Group III base oil (the latter with a higher Noack and a higher CCS).
Other than that, I don't expect BMW to have disallowed 0W-40 in BMW LL-01.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
Oxidation requirements went up dramatically in LL01 and LL04 update in 2018.
But, new Castrol 0W40 on pds has LL01 approval. Could be mistake, we will see.
I forget and curios now which specification, requirements or tests directly or indirectly addresses or deals with the impacts of vm in modern day engine oil?
If you had to pick the top 2 or 3 most effective or stringent specifications (with regard to dealing with vm), which ones would it be?
For example LL-01 vs. A40 vs. MBxyz, etc.
If you had to pick the top 2 or 3 most effective or stringent specifications (with regard to dealing with vm), which ones would it be?
For example LL-01 vs. A40 vs. MBxyz, etc.
Last edited:
Neither. As far as the most stringent specs are concerned, thinner-oil or lower-SAPS specs are most stringent. A3/B4-based thick-oil/full-SAPS specs are somewhat outdated. That said, BMW LL-01 is more stringent than Porsche A40.
While the following tool can sometimes compare apples to oranges, VW 504.00 seems to be one of the most stringent specs:
https://online.lubrizol.com/relperftool/pc.html
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
That tool is only meant to compare approvals from a given marque or organization to another, so you can't use it to compare LL-01 to A40 for example, only LL-01 to LL-14FE or A40 to C30. It's relative to other approvals in a given silo, not relative to other approvals in general.
I'm not sure if we know enough about LL-01 to conclude it is more stringent, or rigorous than A40. We know it recently had an update made to it that capped oxidation, but A40 has the Nurburgring tear-down test, which is extremely demanding, we don't know if BMW has anything remotely close to that, let alone similar or more stringent.
Not directly related, but this is about the most revealing thing I've seen on BMW approvals, LOL:
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
MB229.52. It is most comprehensive.
LL-17FE+ is based on ACEA C5 - 0W-20, 2.6cP.
LL-19FE is based on ACEA C3 - 0W-30, 3.5cP. It's essentially a LL-04 upgrade with a fuel economy test requirement.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
All BMW approvals always had fuel economy requirements. They probably increased it as it is possible to meet C2 requirements with C3 oils.
There is no FE requirement for LL-01. For LL-04 there is the M111 FE test that is within ACEA C3, which is only a requirement for the xW-30 grades. LL-19FE has an additional, BMW-specific FE test which LL-01 and LL-04 do not have.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
OK, I was thinking they have limitations on certain aspects of LL01/04 to address fuel efficiency regardless of how conservative it is.
Where I live in Massachusetts, Castrol 0W-40 seems to have disappeared off of shelves for several months, with Euro 5W-40 and 5W-30 in it's place. Anyone else seeing that? This is at Walmart.
The 5W-30 Euro and 5W-40 both have BMW LL-01. The 5W-30 is made in Austria and API SL, while the 5W-40 is made in the Good ol' USA and is API SN.
The 5W-30 Euro and 5W-40 both have BMW LL-01. The 5W-30 is made in Austria and API SL, while the 5W-40 is made in the Good ol' USA and is API SN.
There is another reference on the infineum website regarding the new bmw ll-19fe specification.
https://www.infineum.com/p6800/
Note the * Further extensions are planned.
https://www.infineum.com/p6800/
Note the * Further extensions are planned.
f355spider
$50 Site Donor 2025
So on the Castrol website the PDS dated 03 May 2022 now says it is BMW LL-04
https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/...630295B802588370049E32F/$File/wepp-ce3qyu.pdf
https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/...630295B802588370049E32F/$File/wepp-ce3qyu.pdf
https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/...630295B802588370049E32F/$File/wepp-ce3qyu.pdf
https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/...630295B802588370049E32F/$File/wepp-ce3qyu.pdf
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