Cartridge filters = better flow?

[Drew99GT]

I was researching filters for my brothers S500 Mercedes, and came across some info stating this. I'm a believer, as the Champ E-Core filters are similar to a cartridge filter in regards to the center plastic cage; E-Core filters make our 98 Blazer almost silent on cold starts and the oil pressure just rockets up. With most any other filter, it has decent cold start knock. Always has but has gotten a bit worse with age (230,000 miles and counting).

Just an observation, but I'm sold on E-Cores for applications where they're available.

 

[mechanicx]

That's interesting about your Blazer. What engine does it have. It probably has the bypass on the engine, so if the Ecores are giving you quicker oil pressure, then it would indicate they flow cold better. That could be because of the ecore design and/or because the filter isn't as efficient. Either way sometimes flow is more important than efficiency.

Regarding cartridge filter being better or being Ecore design. I think older cartridge filters were Ecore. They precede ecore.

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx


Regarding cartridge filter being better or being Ecore design. I think older cartridge filters were Ecore. They precede ecore.


I was just pointing out that cartridge filters have an internal cage similar to the E-Core, instead of a metal tube with a lot of small holes. Both it would seem to me do not restrict flow at all, and Mercedes implied this as well.

This Blazer has the 4.3L V-6.

 

[ThirdeYe]

I have an old SuperTech box by me advertising the merits of the e-core: "Nylon Centertube: allows maximum oil flow and prevents filter media collapse while providing added internal strength." I, too like the e-core design and have no hesitations using them.

 

[river_rat]

The center cage doesn't make any significant difference. It's mostly the media.

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: river_rat
The center cage doesn't make any significant difference. It's mostly the media.


Mercedes and Champion Labs disagrees.

It's like night and day in my Blazer. It's only when it's really cold out, like below 30 and colder.

 

[Drew99GT]

Oh, after looking at an E-Core in the PF47/PF52 size, the inlet holes are bigger and there's 2 more of them compared to a Purolator, which further decreases restriction through the filter IMO.

 

[mechanicx]

Well based on your experience it would seem the only explanation besides the ADBV works better is the Ecore media/centercore flows better with cold oil since I believe the Ecore doesn't have it's own bypass that could possibly be openbing sooner on this application. Keep in mind this could also indicate the filter is less efficient than the others, but in your case maybe flow is a better compromise for cold start over efficiency. It could possible that your engine bypass is dirt/restrictive/not opening fast enough, so filter flow becomes more critical to get fast oil pressure.

I do recall Chap claiming their Ecore can flow more oil with the same efficiency and that the nylon cage helps flow and is actually stronger than the steel. I have no reason to doubt those claims.

 

[river_rat]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
...Keep in mind this could also indicate the filter is less efficient than the others...

If it is less efficient, it's not very much less. The bench test's I've done agree with the given respectable efficiency rating. That is, it filters talcum powder out of the oil quite well--and better than most low to medium price filters that I've done.
The flow through the media is slow compared to the Wix, Mobil 1 , and Denso tested against it..although it has a lot of media with many pleats. It doesn't seem that the cage makes it flow better since it has such resistance to cold oil compared to those with metal tubes. It's still a good filter.
However, AFAIK, all Ecores have a built-in bypass whether the application calls for it or not.
I suspect the oil is using the filter's bypass at start-up and that is compensating for a gunked up engine bypass.
I would be tempted to change out the engine bypass assembly to see if it makes a difference. They aren't expensive.
My 2 cents.

 

[labman]

Originally Posted By: river_rat
The center cage doesn't make any significant difference. It's mostly the media.


Logic leads me to agree. Considering the difference in cost for a few more holes in a steel plate or center tube compared to more or better media, the beancounters would have to idiots not to allow the engineers enough holes to make the media the limiting factor on flow.

While I have a positive attitude toward Champ, I doubt they are above a little marketing hype about the better flow of the center cage.

I would much rather run an Ecore than the conventional junk I have found recently for my truck. Haven't had anything I liked since I used up the last of the ST3950's.

 

[river_rat]

Originally Posted By: labman
While I have a positive attitude toward Champ, I doubt they are above a little marketing hype about the better flow of the center cage.

Sure, they all hype a little. The open design of cage ceratainly does--in theory--reduce the total flow resistance of the filter. = Baseplate holes + ADBV + Media + center tube. But not enough to matter.

Bottom line is it works and it's cheap.
I'm running a Valucraft V3600 Champ/Ecore on my VW van. It's $2.50 and the oil pressure runs exactly the same as the Wix I had on there a couple weeks ago. No worse. And that's with a fairly thick 10W-40.
60 psi at start-up cold idle. 40 psi at full-temp highway speed. 20 psi at hot idle immediately after a long highway run.
That's as good as the Wix and the others. Not better but the same.

 

[labman]

Remind me who sells Value-Craft. I am so disgusted with Wal*Mart now, I may check elsewhere.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: river_rat
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
...Keep in mind this could also indicate the filter is less efficient than the others...

If it is less efficient, it's not very much less. The bench test's I've done agree with the given respectable efficiency rating. That is, it filters talcum powder out of the oil quite well--and better than most low to medium price filters that I've done.
The flow through the media is slow compared to the Wix, Mobil 1 , and Denso tested against it..although it has a lot of media with many pleats. It doesn't seem that the cage makes it flow better since it has such resistance to cold oil compared to those with metal tubes. It's still a good filter.


I don't disagree with any of that, I was just trying to provide some exlanation for why this filter appears to provided quicker oil pressure that the poster mentioned.

Quote:
However, AFAIK, all Ecores have a built-in bypass whether the application calls for it or not.
I suspect the oil is using the filter's bypass at start-up and that is compensating for a gunked up engine bypass.
I would be tempted to change out the engine bypass assembly to see if it makes a difference. They aren't expensive.
My 2 cents.


I also thought it might have a gunked up bypass or one that isn't otherwise opening. However, when I looked at the Ecores for applications that have their own engine bypass it seemed that the second set of holes that I thought made the oil filter's bypass work were not include. Are Ecore's bypass always included, while other filters do not, or do they still bypass in application that already have one, I don't know? I don't think I would want two bypasses going at the same time.

 

[river_rat]

Originally Posted By: labman
Remind me who sells Value-Craft. I am so disgusted with Wal*Mart now, I may check elsewhere.
Autozone but you have to ask at the counter because they aren't on display.
Seems like the numbers are the same as STP and Fram with a V prefix instead of S or PH.
Same thing as the STP filter out on the shelf but $1 less without the pretty blue paint and decal.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
However, when I looked at the Ecores for applications that have their own engine bypass it seemed that the second set of holes that I thought made the oil filter's bypass work were not include.

I stand corrected, unless the extra holes are hiding under the false bottom plate.

 

[river_rat]

mechanicx is right. I looked at an AC/Delco Ecore today at Wallace*World and by golly there is no second set of holes on the one I saw. No Bypass after all I guess. I think it was a PF61.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: river_rat
I looked at an AC/Delco Ecore today at Wallace*World and by golly there is no second set of holes on the one I saw. No Bypass after all I guess. I think it was a PF61.


That's what I noticed on other AC Delco Ecores pf47, pf52 etc. Well it's good to know that those Ecores are being made application specific.