Can you say sludge?!?!
- Thread starter johnand
- Start date
- Status
That is minor. I would use Lube Control or 131. You might even be able to get most of the top end clean with a solvent brush and some low tech B12 Chemtool! I would use Auto-Rx for sludge but not for varnish removal.
MolaKule
Staff member
I would apply 16 oz. of LC and Neutra to the head after an engine warm up, replace VC and gasket, idle for 20 minutes, and then change oil.
Update:
I have finished the 1st clean cycle and am about 600 miles into the 1st rinse. Car runs the same, but mileage has improved 1-2MPG.
I have finally gotten a chance to cut open some filters to take a look. I have been using AMSOIL SDF15 (Oversized for my car.) and AMSOIL 5W-40 Euro oil for the last couple of changes with 5-6K change intervals. I kept the filter from the change before I put AutoRX in. The filter had just under 6K on it. For the 1st AutoRX clean, I drained the oil, and installed a new Purolator Pure 1 PL30001 filter and Cheveron 5w30 oil.
Here are the pics. Click on the image for high res full size pics:
This is the picture of the pre AutoRX AMSOIL filter.
This is the picture of the pre AutoRX AMSOIL filter. This is the filter material pleats. There was no trace of any particles in the pleats.
This is the picture of the Purolator Pure 1 filter from the 1st rinse at 1632 miles on it.
This is the picture of the Purolator Pure 1 filter from the 1st rinse at 1632 miles on it. This shot is of the filter material. Notice the particles in the pleats. It was grainy type particles, very small in size.
This is the picture of the Purolator Pure 1 filter from the 1st rinse at 1632 miles on it. This is the particles that I scraped off of the filter material pleats, and wiped on a cloth. These are very fine particles, that feel kinda like sand.
More updates to come.
I have finished the 1st clean cycle and am about 600 miles into the 1st rinse. Car runs the same, but mileage has improved 1-2MPG.
I have finally gotten a chance to cut open some filters to take a look. I have been using AMSOIL SDF15 (Oversized for my car.) and AMSOIL 5W-40 Euro oil for the last couple of changes with 5-6K change intervals. I kept the filter from the change before I put AutoRX in. The filter had just under 6K on it. For the 1st AutoRX clean, I drained the oil, and installed a new Purolator Pure 1 PL30001 filter and Cheveron 5w30 oil.
Here are the pics. Click on the image for high res full size pics:
This is the picture of the pre AutoRX AMSOIL filter.
This is the picture of the pre AutoRX AMSOIL filter. This is the filter material pleats. There was no trace of any particles in the pleats.
This is the picture of the Purolator Pure 1 filter from the 1st rinse at 1632 miles on it.
This is the picture of the Purolator Pure 1 filter from the 1st rinse at 1632 miles on it. This shot is of the filter material. Notice the particles in the pleats. It was grainy type particles, very small in size.
This is the picture of the Purolator Pure 1 filter from the 1st rinse at 1632 miles on it. This is the particles that I scraped off of the filter material pleats, and wiped on a cloth. These are very fine particles, that feel kinda like sand.
More updates to come.
Keep us up to date. I would like to see what she looks like after the rinse phase! If it is still not clean try either Molacules recomendation or mine! Varnish is easily removed with solvents based products! LC and 131 will probably work better for this heavy varnish. We have seen Auto-Rx knock out sludge in one treatment but all of the heavy varnish applications have taken two or three auto-rx applications and a coresponding number of rinses. The rinse phase is wear most of the cleaning takes place and the filter usualy loads up if their is any sludge!
Update:
I am about to change the oil today from the 2nd clean phase of Auto-RX. I will take pics of the engine and cut open the filter as well. I still have to cut open the 1st rinse filter as well. I will post those this week.
As far as the pictures after the first rinse, I have them here:
I see a very small amount of cleaning in the pictures. You can see the cams between cylinder 2and3, and 3and4 are cleaner, and overall, there appears that the sludge buildup is thinner. In one pic, you can see where I rubber the guide for the timing chain, and the sludge just wiped off, so the Auto-RX has loosened it up. The biggest difference I noticed, is the valve cover bottom used to be coated with a thin black layer of sludge, and it is almost all gone.
I have used Cheveron Supreme for all phases so far, but am throwing some Delvac 15w40 HDEO in for the final rinse.
I have had some strange and unusual behavior from the car lately, but I highly doubt it has anything to do with the AutoRX, but the car has been backfiring when shifting, then getting back on the gas. It has been hesitating and surging as well. Plus, I think it is running rich, as it always smells like raw gas when it is running lately. It almost failed smog with hydrocarbons at 178ppm, with the limit being 180ppm. I looked at my last smog report from 2 years ago, and my hydrocarbons were 13ppm. Still need to look into these problems.
[ May 24, 2005, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: johnand ]
I am about to change the oil today from the 2nd clean phase of Auto-RX. I will take pics of the engine and cut open the filter as well. I still have to cut open the 1st rinse filter as well. I will post those this week.
As far as the pictures after the first rinse, I have them here:
I see a very small amount of cleaning in the pictures. You can see the cams between cylinder 2and3, and 3and4 are cleaner, and overall, there appears that the sludge buildup is thinner. In one pic, you can see where I rubber the guide for the timing chain, and the sludge just wiped off, so the Auto-RX has loosened it up. The biggest difference I noticed, is the valve cover bottom used to be coated with a thin black layer of sludge, and it is almost all gone.
I have used Cheveron Supreme for all phases so far, but am throwing some Delvac 15w40 HDEO in for the final rinse.
I have had some strange and unusual behavior from the car lately, but I highly doubt it has anything to do with the AutoRX, but the car has been backfiring when shifting, then getting back on the gas. It has been hesitating and surging as well. Plus, I think it is running rich, as it always smells like raw gas when it is running lately. It almost failed smog with hydrocarbons at 178ppm, with the limit being 180ppm. I looked at my last smog report from 2 years ago, and my hydrocarbons were 13ppm. Still need to look into these problems.
[ May 24, 2005, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: johnand ]
Please cut open filters from your rinse cycle and post photos.Just a friendly reminder follow the application for "Heavy Oil Burning/Sludge Issues"
Good Work.
Good Work.
I'd just change the old filter at this point, add another 4-6 oz of ARX and run that for another 3000 miles. You need more solvency to clean these types of baked on, carbonacous deposits.
The too rich fuel mixture and/or incomplete combustion process is directly contributing to these carbonacous deposits. You need to correct that or they will simply re-form over time....
The too rich fuel mixture and/or incomplete combustion process is directly contributing to these carbonacous deposits. You need to correct that or they will simply re-form over time....
I just finished the 2nd 1500 mile clean. So, you think I should ALSO add 4-6oz to the final rinse and go for 3000 miles instead of 2000?
I am also concidering a 3rd treatment, if I don't see good results at the end of this rinse.
I know, the too rich fuel mixture and/or incomplete combustion process is directly contributing to these carbonacous deposits, but that JUST started into the first rinse of Auto-RX, so it wasn't the cause of all that buildup, but probably doesn't help the clean much. I am having a hard time tracking down the problem.
Johnand, If your second rinse phase leaves the engine dirty do yourself a favor and get some Lube Control. The first time you use LC add 16 onces to your old dirty oil and run for 15-30 minutes at fast idle! Then drain and put a new filter and fresh oil in! Then add 2 onces per quart of oil and 2 onces every 1000 miles. About 3 oil changes later you will be able to go down to 1 once per quart and 1 onces ever 1000 miles!You can use the LC with any oil you choose! I think a gallon of Lube Control is between $20-$30 and in this application will give you about 40,000-45,000 miles of of continued cleaning and enhanced oxidation resistance!
All of the stuff that Auto-Rx has softened that is not comeing off in the oil by itself very quickly will fall off fast with LC. It is my experince that Auto-RX and LC complament one another nicely. Each has their place and are different in their aproach to cleaning and maintaining an engine!
I did a single application of Auto-Rx in a sludge free enigne. It did not get any of the varnish off at all. In my transmission though Auto-Rx did a great job! When I added LC to my engine it had almost all of the visable varnish gone on the first OCI with it. I only did an 8 once flush prior to useing it as recomended by Terry.
I wanted to add that many people that have secesfully used Auto-Rx to do the heavy lifting have had excellent results with LC after they have allowed Auto-Rx to do it's job!
[ May 24, 2005, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]
All of the stuff that Auto-Rx has softened that is not comeing off in the oil by itself very quickly will fall off fast with LC. It is my experince that Auto-RX and LC complament one another nicely. Each has their place and are different in their aproach to cleaning and maintaining an engine!
I did a single application of Auto-Rx in a sludge free enigne. It did not get any of the varnish off at all. In my transmission though Auto-Rx did a great job! When I added LC to my engine it had almost all of the visable varnish gone on the first OCI with it. I only did an 8 once flush prior to useing it as recomended by Terry.
I wanted to add that many people that have secesfully used Auto-Rx to do the heavy lifting have had excellent results with LC after they have allowed Auto-Rx to do it's job!
[ May 24, 2005, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]
Anyone note these engine pix that have been using "high end" syns ,even with shorter drains still show a tremendous amount of carbonaceous deposits.
Guys, this site originally was designed to focus on the premptive and predictive capcability of using non intrusive oil analysis.
I highly recommend doing that so you can correct the regimen BEFORE you get to this point.
Too Slick is correct operating issues have loaded a neato little mill with too much debris and deposit formation.
Oil analysis would allow me to get very specific on how to fix it and KEEP it clean.
Auto-RX is saving a very dirty engine from the pix I see here.
Motor oil won't clean and in most cases won't maintain a level cleanliness that any of us are happy with, as these pix prove.
Auto-RX is cleaning here and is doing it still. The visual check of the oil filter is only one aspect of cleaning. The debris is located in areas that get mostly gaseous blowby and vented fumes. I would bet that coolant or coked oil was a problem, possibly even high dirt ingress from the debris coatings.
Oxidation, nitration, soot/solids, insolubles, and then wear levels are your best indication of what tool to use and when to use it.
Note that when a customer (who follows our guidance) posts trended oil analysis here, in relatively short order the engine is cleaned and after that happens wear miracously drops too.
Both Auto-RX and LC are used in my arsenal for cleaning and keeping clean, use them wisely, based on emperical data.
Guys, this site originally was designed to focus on the premptive and predictive capcability of using non intrusive oil analysis.
I highly recommend doing that so you can correct the regimen BEFORE you get to this point.
Too Slick is correct operating issues have loaded a neato little mill with too much debris and deposit formation.
Oil analysis would allow me to get very specific on how to fix it and KEEP it clean.
Auto-RX is saving a very dirty engine from the pix I see here.
Motor oil won't clean and in most cases won't maintain a level cleanliness that any of us are happy with, as these pix prove.
Auto-RX is cleaning here and is doing it still. The visual check of the oil filter is only one aspect of cleaning. The debris is located in areas that get mostly gaseous blowby and vented fumes. I would bet that coolant or coked oil was a problem, possibly even high dirt ingress from the debris coatings.
Oxidation, nitration, soot/solids, insolubles, and then wear levels are your best indication of what tool to use and when to use it.
Note that when a customer (who follows our guidance) posts trended oil analysis here, in relatively short order the engine is cleaned and after that happens wear miracously drops too.
Both Auto-RX and LC are used in my arsenal for cleaning and keeping clean, use them wisely, based on emperical data.
To me it looks like about the same progress on the first application as we saw in Aarons test. After application two Aarons valve train looked pretty darn good. I would expect the same here.
This motor is a good candidate for running the mainteance dose of ARX after the secon clean and rinse cycles are complete. Also very interested to see where the compression numbers end up, after all is done.
This motor is a good candidate for running the mainteance dose of ARX after the secon clean and rinse cycles are complete. Also very interested to see where the compression numbers end up, after all is done.
John,
It's too late now, but I would have simply changed the filter; added another 1/2 bottle of ARX and kept running the same oil in there for at least another 3000 miles. I ran a full bottle of ARX for 10,000 miles in my old Audi and there were no seal or gasket issues. My feeling is that ARX will continue to clean way beyond 1500 miles and you should run it more like 5000 miles unless you are in a hurry. I've also experimented (on my own cars) with running a higher concentration of the stuff (I like to overtest
) and I see no issues with that either.
ARX is basically a foolproof product; provided you can locate the oil filler cap on your engine...
TD is 100% correct that even the best synlubes with high ester contents will NOT clean like this stuff does...
Tooslick
It's too late now, but I would have simply changed the filter; added another 1/2 bottle of ARX and kept running the same oil in there for at least another 3000 miles. I ran a full bottle of ARX for 10,000 miles in my old Audi and there were no seal or gasket issues. My feeling is that ARX will continue to clean way beyond 1500 miles and you should run it more like 5000 miles unless you are in a hurry. I've also experimented (on my own cars) with running a higher concentration of the stuff (I like to overtest
ARX is basically a foolproof product; provided you can locate the oil filler cap on your engine...
TD is 100% correct that even the best synlubes with high ester contents will NOT clean like this stuff does...
Tooslick
If you had run Amsoil or Mobil 1 or Redline from the beginning, you wouldn't have this mess to deal with - even with the short trip driving conditions.... If this is a true statement it says a lot about Synthetics unless he ran extended OCI with the Petrolem oil.Another way to view it is look at what shape the engine was in other than being dirty.I would stick with the AMSOIL all along once a year change and a filter at 6 months.My 2 cents
Tooslick,quote:
Originally posted by TooSlick:
John,
It's too late now, but I would have simply changed the filter; added another 1/2 bottle of ARX and kept running the same oil in there for at least another 3000 miles. I ran a full bottle of ARX for 10,000 miles in my old Audi and there were no seal or gasket issues. My feeling is that ARX will continue to clean way beyond 1500 miles and you should run it more like 5000 miles unless you are in a hurry. I've also experimented (on my own cars) with running a higher concentration of the stuff (I like to overtest) and I see no issues with that either.
ARX is basically a foolproof product; provided you can locate the oil filler cap on your engine...
TD is 100% correct that even the best synlubes with high ester contents will NOT clean like this stuff does...
Tooslick
Since I didn't get a chance to change the oil yesterday, I will follow your recommendation and not change the oil, just the filter. I have right at 1500 miles on this oil of the clean phase, is 5K miles safe to go on this OCI, with Chevron Supreme conventional?
- Status
Similar threads
